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What can we use after lead

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paul: I agree with what your saying, and the fate of the passenger pigeon and the buffalo very well could have been due to disease.

Although it is highly unlikely that lead ingestion (eating) has caused more than 1 percent of the total mortality of waterfowl, vultures and condors, when people with their own agenda can and do use faulty "Scientific data" to hoodwink the public into believing it is a major cause, what can we do?

As is well known, the misuse of data combined with a Very Loud voice in the Media is almost impossible to fight.
zonie :)
 
I'm going along with you on this one, Rebel and two-bellys. I'm all for a laugh and joking around, but the lead thing concerns me. Missouri just banned lead shot on all of it's named "Conservation Areas" for ALL hunting, not just waterfowl. Seems like these things happen not by leaps, but single steps. On both sides. Joking about and considering other projectile options may be the first step in acceptance, albeit an innocent one, a step nontheless. The folks who want our rights and arms count on this. And sometimes they win. Is that a draft I feel coming through the back door?

Leaky Roof
 
If I may suggest a bold response" BOYCOTT the hunting areas, and states that are banning lead. Picket the damn places to inform other hunters who might otherwise be scabs.

You see, the States and Federal Government make a lot of money play ing the old, Tom Sawyer " Paint my fence for me " trick on hunters. They charge us big fees for licenses and permits, then impose mind numbing regulations on what we can and cannot do, all to regulate game species so that the populations remain in balance with available habitat. I have been teaching this stuff for 25 years, so please bear with me.

If even 10% of hunters refuse to buy hunting licenses this year, and permits for special seasons, it will put a huge crimp in the department's budgets. All Game Department are funded out of user fees, and Pittman Romberson taxes. Those are paid by manufacturers as an excise tax on products shipped out of their factories. The tax is apportioned to the states based on how many hunting licenses and permits are sold in the state. Buy fewer licenses, and the state gets less revenue. Buy fewer licenses, and the State collect less user fees.

The sale of hunting licenses has been declining for the past 10 years, as more and more anti-gun efforts have closed hunting and shooting sports to youngsters through activities at schools. The hunting population is aging, and within 50 years just may not exist any more.

SO, we either do something to stop these Politicians where it hurts them the most, or pack our bags, and go fishing. You may have heard that some fish agencies are trying to ban the use of lead sinkers and weights. It will not take long for all fishing to be banned. Just listen to PETA.

I am suggesting that people simply begin by refusing to apply for permits to hunt on military bases, or in those Conservation areas in Missouri. The game will still be there, and it will eventually move out into surrounding farms and territory, which won't hurt hunting in the least. But the income generated, and the game management problems created for the state when hunters refuse to PAY the state for the privilege of doing the public's work, forcing general revenue to be spent to hire state employees to go out and kill game populations to keep them in balance will hit the legislature like a ton of bricks. Conservation funds have always been a sacred cow that was not touched. No one ever thought that general revenue might have to be allocated to pay for salaries, and other costs. So stop hunting those areas, and donate some time to picket them, to let others know how important it is that we use our First Amendment Rights to end this kind of nonsense and non-fact based discrimination against hunting. The public at large needs to know the cost of these bubble headed schemes from the bunny and tree huggers. If you don't tell them now, you may not have a chance to tell them in the future.

Oh, in case you didn't know, this is part of a long term Plan, cooked up by the Socialists who are part of the Brady Group, to remove reasons for people to own and use firearms for legitimate purposes. Once hunting is ended, that reason for owning firearms is gone. They are already attacking the right to use firearms for self defense, and have already change English law on that subject to make it a crime to use a firearm to defend yourself. That is what they have in mind for the USA< too. The first step was to deny us access to kids to train them in the shooting sports. Sociological studies show that if you don't get to kids before they reach 10 years of age with outside interests, it is highly unlikely that they will become interested in shooting after they get older. The Clinton Administration got Congress to pass the law to prohibit guns in schools, without the permission of the Superintendent or principal. That was the first step. The next step is banning hunting. The third is closing ranges, using Toxic pollution arguments. The Clintons began the change over for the military to use ammo with no lead. So, the military is now in the other camp, and are no friends to hunters, or to ML shooters. Once the ranges are closed, and hunting is banned, the number of guns in private ownership will be reduced to the point that the few gun owners will no longer have the voting clout to successfully oppose banning all guns. That is the final step.

Boycott the bastards. You will feel better. And get your friends to boycott the areas, too. See how long the State of Missouri can operate those conservation areas without user fees, and P-R funding.
 
The inferior ballistics of steel shot waste far more ducks and geese due to crippling than EVER died from lead poisoning.

The only place lead poisoning came into play with ducks was on some of the old hunt clubs where shooting was done out of permanent blinds in the same direction for many many decades and allowed to build up.
Most waterfowling in the plains states is done on agricultural land which is tilled every year, moves the lead out of the birds reach.

Our lovely Ducks Unlimited :bull: supported this law as well.....I call cahotz with ammo manufacturers.
 
spudnut said:
Old Ford said:
How long have you been shooting at that bird ....to get 20 lbs. of lead in him.
He must of eventually sunk!
You would break every tooth in your mouth on that old " Buzzard"
Old Ford
Methinks somebody who don't like the club most likley force fed im
My thought exactly. :hmm:
 
Dosn't lead come from the ground in the first place :hmm: . Just a thought. Fisher King
 
Pauls saisd:
"...all of us have to STOP accepting the myth that hunting has caused extinctions of species. There just is no real proof of any thing of the kind. It is a myth pushed by people who hate mankind, and hate guns and hunting, and who would deny that they were given teeth designed both to grind and eat grains, and grasses, as well as teeth designed to cut and tear meat."


WELL SAID PAUL! :applause: :hatsoff:
 
barebackjack said:
The inferior ballistics of steel shot waste far more ducks and geese due to crippling than EVER died from lead poisoning.

I observed this fact first hand as a casual duck hunter in the 1990-1994 timeframe when lead shot was
banned for waterfowl in my state.
 
Good post, Paul. I love it when your feathers get ruffled :haha: . So much information comes out :bow: . Just get them liderals to listen. Just glad you are on our side :thumbsup: .
 
paulvallandigham said:
Redfeather: Please don't pass on lies. The only studies done were done by Glen Sanderson as a graduate student at the University of Illinois. He found a few ducks that had lead pellets in their craws, along with similar sized stones used to grind seeds to aid in the digestion process. He extrapolated mortality by assuming some facts that were not correct. His preliminary papers for his doctorate were grabbed by the anti-hunting, anti-gun folks and used to ban lead shot for waterfowl. When he completed his research he found that he had made errors in his calculations, and that lead was not proven to contribute additional mortality through ingestion, as compared to ducks wounded that flew away and died later.

THERE IS NO FACTUAL SUPPORT( in academic langauge, that is NO EMPIRICAL DATA SUPPORTING ) THE PROPOSITION THAT LEAD SHOT IS CAUSING UNNECESSARY AND ADDITIONAL MORTALITY THROUGH INGESTION.

I don't like to be referred to as someone who "passes on lies". Just spent half an hour searching on this and there do seem to be more than one study, all empirically supported. I suppose you are referring above to the seminal 1959 study? How about the follow-ups performed in the 70's and 80's?

You know, if ducks are eating lead pellets which grind up in their craws, how is that ok for them while people eating lead shot is not? Something different about human body chemistry? Sorry, but it kind of makes sense to me. Some of the references cited physical deformities associated with lead poisoning and I would think they did tissue sampling to substantiate this. Those studies have to stand up to peer review, as well.

Do I like the implications of lead shot? No, but I do have to pay some serious attention to the research and not just blow it off as some kind of "liberalist" conspiracy. (Where's the empirical data for that?)


One thing's for sure. If we still used lineotype instead of the internet, some posters here would be using all the lead! :haha:
 
:cursing: Kalifornia strikes again--the home of the (in)famous 9th Circuit Court, the Left Coast---my heart goes out to the decent thinking people of that state. Though New York State isn't the land of milk and honey either, it hasn't gotten that bad yet!!!!. :shake:
 
The lead shot ingested by ducks is most often already coated with either calcium, or iron, or a combination of those elements, which protects the ducks from much in the way of lead poisoning before the lead passes on through and out the duck. There is a certain level of mortality from all sources, which we cannot control 100%. Just as humans die from accidents, disease, old age, birth defects, intentional injuries, and other causes, animals also die from all these. A duck in the wild that lives 3 years is a very old duck. But, then a domestic cat that lives out doors has a life expectency of only 18 months.

Any one can work long enough and find a duck that has apparently died from ingested lead. But it is a very small percent, and it is well within the other mortality causes. It is NOT threatening ducks as a species, which is what the Endangered Species act was suppose to be all about. More ducks die from being wounded and not killed outright from pellets, both lead, and now non-toxic pellets, than die from lead poisoning CAUSED by ingestion of lead pellets.

Certainly there is no evidence that lead is having the same effect on Pheasant, rabbits, quail or other upland game animals.

People, particular infancts, who eat lead-based paint, something that was outlawed more than 40 years ago, had elevated lead levels in the their blood because of their age, size, and immature development. Adults that inhale lead fumes, found on indoor ranges, also can develop elevated lead levels. Ventilation is the key to removing that problem, and frequent cleaning of surfaces at the ranges, with water.

As to lead paint ingestion, most of that paint has already been removed from homes and apartments. The answer there was to have adequate supervision by the parents of such infants. Who would sit around and watch their child eating paint of any kind??? Just how stupid can parents be and have society pick up the cost?

Most birds do not hold stones or lead pellets in their craws more than a few hours, before passing them along with their stools. That is why the birds are always picking up new gravel and stones for their craws! Upland game birds have much smaller craws, and use much smaller pellets than the shot used by hunters to hunt them. The shot also falls on grass and woods covered ground, where it is much more likely to work down into the soil and be covered over, out of the reach of such birds. Birds tend to find their gravel along streams, sand bars, creeks, and rivers, and not in the middle of fields or in edge cover, or trees.

For that reason, there is no rational justification for restricting the use of lead shot for hunting upland game animals. The same goes for using lead shot at skeet, and trap, and sporting clays ranges. Yes, there are hundreds of pounds of lead put into the enviroment, but that lead is oxidized, and coated with whatever minerals are avaiable in the soil. Here in Central Illinois, and Northern Illinois it is mainly Calcium. In Southern Illinois is mainly Iron. If you have ever seen bullets for sale at the tourists shops near Gettysburg, or other battlefiled sites, the bullets all have this white crust on them. That is lead oxide, and usually has a high calcium content, as calcium is widely available in soils in this country. It is brought to the surfaces by the roots of trees; it leeches out of plant leaves, and from the bones of dead animals, and from the feces of mice that consume the bones. It sweetens the soil by neutralizing the acids that exist in the environment. My God, Galena, Illinois, was the source of almost all the lead used up until after the Civil War. there was lead all over that place because of the high lead content of soils in that area. If lead posed a serious threat to the general health of people, it would have decimated the population in that town rather quickly. The lead mines are now closed, but only because the amount of lead per ton of rock is too small to make a profit. I am sure there is plenty of lead dust and lead oxide to be found around that town.

The point being made is that lead has been around for hundreds of years, and we have seen no mass killing of people as a result of lead poisoning caused by either eating lead or breathing lead laden fumes. ZNor has it been shown to cause brain damage in other than small children. Since their source of lead was the lead based paints, that is no longer a problem in the USA. I have a friend who worked as a range officer at a police training facility. When his elevated lead levels were discovered, he was taken off the range. In about a year, his lead levels had dropped to well within normal levels, and he had suffered no ill effects. He was quite angry at being removed from the range, and assigned to classroom duties. His employer had him taken an annual blood test to check lead levels for several years afterwards, and it continued to drop each year. Neither he nor other co-workers suffered any lasting effects from breathing in lead particles at the range. They did upgrade ventilation and fans at the range, and that cured the problem for subsequent range workers.
 
You leave Kalifornia alone! This is the land of gold and Arnold! I want all the liberals in the country to come here, cause I'm leaving :surrender: . Still waiting for that earthquake to turn Nevada into the new west coast :rotf: . Hope those liberals can swim :thumbsup: .
 
So, I wonder when this thread will be deleted?

I mean, sounds like ya'll are talking politics... :redface: :shocked2:

FWIIW I agree that the lead issue is mostly :bull:
 
We aren't discussing politics, Just saying it how it is. It really isn't politicians so much as it is environmental wackos that are causing all the problems. The politicians just jump on the media bandwagon.
 
Rebel said:
We aren't discussing politics, Just saying it how it is. It really isn't politicians so much as it is environmental wackos that are causing all the problems. The politicians just jump on the media bandwagon.

Sir, are you challenging my integrity? Well then, meet me at the south lawn at noon tomorrow for a duel. Be sure to bring your second. :rotf:

Sorry, couldn't help it. :surrender:
 
You will have to settle for just me. I don't have or need a second.

And no i wasn't challenging anything, just stating the facts.
 
i eat all the paint off the windows in our house when i was 4 and survived :shocked2: i dont think that a duck can eat enough shot to hurt him ,have you ever found a peice of shot on the ground ,next time you hunt doves in a corn field try to find some shot . :winking:
 
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