What constitutes a "defective gun"?

[NorthFork]

I will not name the vendor as this has not been resolved yet and very well might end up resolved satisfactorily. I will name the manufacturer. It is one of Pedersoli's variants of the Brown Bess.

I purchased a brand new Ped Brown Bess variant last week. I received the gun today. Apon looking it over I have found several things that I do not like.

The most important is that the touchhole is literally at the bottom of the pan. Not a 1/16" off the bottom. No, it's fully at the bottom of the pan.

Next is the bore. The breech face forward to about 3" from the muzzle is like a mirror. That's great. The bad part is that it looks like someone honed or ground the bore from the crown of the muzzle down the bore about 3". Very curious looking.

Ped inletted the lock too deep. So someone (I'll assume Pedersoli) took and ground a large 1" long or so divot in the wood at the top of the lock so that the cock wouldn't drag on the wood. Even managed to grind into the top of the lock plate while hogging the wood away. Extremely sloppy.

While Pedersoli has never been known to have inletting that is perfect, generally speaking for a production gun Peds inletting is usually pretty darn good. I know, I own a few. Not this time. Trigger guard, forward ramrod pipe and entry pipe are very sloppy. Crude would be an apt term.

So I call the vendor. I was polite. The gentleman I ended up talking to said I would have to send it back and they would compare it to others in stock before making a determination on an exchange. That's all I really want is an exchange, not a refund. The gun is unfired and untampered with. I asked about a call tag so that I would not have to eat the shipping back. He did agree to that but not instantly. He claimed based on my description that the gun was NOT defective.

So forget about sloppy inletting for a minute. Forget about the curious situation with the bore near the muzzle. Forget about the hack job 'correcting' a lock plate inletted to deep. Am I wrong in assuming that a touchhole should be roughly in the sunset position in relation to the pan? To me a touchhole at the very bottom of the pan on a production gun should be cause for a return.

He said they would inspect it and get back to me on a solution. What say all of you? I do ask that this not turn into a nasty thread.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Do you have pictures of the areas that concern you?

 

[FishDFly]

This should be interesting to see what is defined as defective.

Over the years lots of folks have voiced their concerns about firearms they received that did not meet their expectations, from sloppy manufacturing to failure to fire.

I know that not all firearms are not inspected prior to shipping, the boxes are not opened. I have never received one that the box was open prior to me opening it.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Defective to me would mean it doesn’t work. Warranty can include material or workmanship. They decide what is acceptable workmanship sadly. To me I’d say your gun is of unsatisfactory quality. That’s the rough part of buying by mail order and the vendor must decide if their reputation is worth making it right to you.

 

[mooman76]

It almost sounds to me like someone else got it, didn't like some things on it, and tried to correct it them self. Then decided to return it and it got put back on the shelf. I'm just speculating of coarse, and I haven't got into flint (yet) but sounds like defects to me, especially that thing with the bore. I'd send it back and I believe they will swap it out to satisfy you.

 

[hawkeye2]

The touchhole on my circa '77 Pedersoli Bess is centered fore and aft on the pan but the bottom edge was actually very slightly below the bottom edge of the pan. I took a bit and very slightly countersunk the outside of the touchhole and ground a little out of the bottom edge of the pan to expose the entire touchhole. I have never had any problems with hangfires, slow ignition or failure to fire. BTW the touchhole is unaltered from factory size. I have always felt that the location of the touchhole is overrated except possibly in some serious competition and I haven't encountered a gun that didn't work well provided the hole is below the bottom edge of the frizzen.

The area of the lock plate behind the cock projects from the wood by a little bit and a very small bit of wood (3/8" long by 1/16"+) was removed so the cock can strike the plate as it should. The inletting is quite good for an import

 

[NorthFork]

@hawkeye2 thanks for the comments on the touchhole.

@mooman76 that thought has occurred to me but I have no proof one way or the other.

@Phil Coffins I was concerned about test firing and not being able to return after test firing.

Based on the comments so far, maybe I am wrong about the gun being defective and its more along the lines of unacceptable workmanship.

 

[mooman76]

To me pour workmanship can also be a defect especially unacceptable workmanship. Correcting the wood is one thing but the end of the barrel, what could cause that?

 

[Sidney Smith]

Bottom line, if you're not happy with the quality of the workmanship on that particular gun, then that there is reason enough to send the gun back. The gun is probably not defective from an operational standpoint. From a quality standards point it is. Any vendor worth their salt will make things right.

When I bougjt my GPR, I sent two guns back before I got one that was acceptable to me. Gun no.1 was was right handed. I had ordered a lefty, so screwup on somebodys part. Gun no.2 had deep gouges on the muzzle as if somebody had rested the thing on rocky ground. Back to vendor it went for replacement. Gun no.3 sits in my safe.

Was the vendor annoyed with me? After gun no. 2, he was. Did I care, hell no. My money not his. Make it right bud, or you've lost one customer. He made things right.

If you're not happy send it back. You will regret it if you don't.

 

[Col. Batguano]

If you are unhappy, that's the bottom line. You might have to go through several guns before you are, if ever. Because of mail order, after this one it might be up to you to pay for subsequent shipping. That's why it's always best to personally examine things before you buy them. Or at least look at pictures.

 

[Dave Marsh]

Don't know what you paid although I see on Cabela's site they are $1139.99 although out of stock. If I paid that kind of money and was not happy it would be on its way back to the supplier. All are quality issues to me. Good luck.

Dave

 

[NorthFork]

I can't say how much as that would be a dead give away on the vendor. It's a vendor specific model. I want to give the vendor every opportunity to resolve this before I bad mouth anyone (besides Pedersoli). Even then I really don't want to bad mouth anyone. It's just not worth it. However the price is much higher than $1139. The gentleman's response to defect or not is what caught me off guard.

In response to @Col. Batguano I know it's a production gun. Even customs have flaws. I'm actually not that picky. The extremely low touchhole bothers me the most, but the rest of the flaws are just too much. Even for a $400 Traditions.

The gun is going back. I'm waiting on a call tag to be emailed to me. I'm going to take pics of what I consider to be flaws before I send it back. I'll try to post them this weekend.

I'm hopeful at the 'end of the day' so to speak that the vendor and I will work this out. It will just take some time.

 

[Crow-Feather]

Just thinking, If this is a Covid rifle, (Made while a bunch of Pedersoli employees were not working at their regular posts) then I can understand why the problem occurred. I had this problem with another brand of rifle. I finally, after about a years time, had the rifle replaced. The second rifle was better, but still not what one would expect. I corrected the problems with the second rifle, but still had negative vibes every time I picked it up. So I sold it. But I will never buy that brand of rifle again.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Photos please...
I have been dealing with the Pedersoli and Jap Bess for 25 years, and probably can give you a or a pretty quick....as many of our cohorts on this forum can also do.

LD

 

[springfield art]

I will not name the vendor as this has not been resolved yet and very well might end up resolved satisfactorily. I will name the manufacturer. It is one of Pedersoli's variants of the Brown Bess.

I purchased a brand new Ped Brown Bess variant last week. I received the gun today. Apon looking it over I have found several things that I do not like.

The most important is that the touchhole is literally at the bottom of the pan. Not a 1/16" off the bottom. No, it's fully at the bottom of the pan.

Next is the bore. The breech face forward to about 3" from the muzzle is like a mirror. That's great. The bad part is that it looks like someone honed or ground the bore from the crown of the muzzle down the bore about 3". Very curious looking.

Ped inletted the lock too deep. So someone (I'll assume Pedersoli) took and ground a large 1" long or so divot in the wood at the top of the lock so that the cock wouldn't drag on the wood. Even managed to grind into the top of the lock plate while hogging the wood away. Extremely sloppy.

While Pedersoli has never been known to have inletting that is perfect, generally speaking for a production gun Peds inletting is usually pretty darn good. I know, I own a few. Not this time. Trigger guard, forward ramrod pipe and entry pipe are very sloppy. Crude would be an apt term.

So I call the vendor. I was polite. The gentleman I ended up talking to said I would have to send it back and they would compare it to others in stock before making a determination on an exchange. That's all I really want is an exchange, not a refund. The gun is unfired and untampered with. I asked about a call tag so that I would not have to eat the shipping back. He did agree to that but not instantly. He claimed based on my description that the gun was NOT defective.

So forget about sloppy inletting for a minute. Forget about the curious situation with the bore near the muzzle. Forget about the hack job 'correcting' a lock plate inletted to deep. Am I wrong in assuming that a touchhole should be roughly in the sunset position in relation to the pan? To me a touchhole at the very bottom of the pan on a production gun should be cause for a return.

He said they would inspect it and get back to me on a solution. What say all of you? I do ask that this not turn into a nasty thread.

Based upon your very clearly stated description of the problems with that particular gun, it should be completely replaced. I'd get my money back flat out, and explore a purchase at sometime in the future. This is surprising for Ped.

 

[springfield art]

PS; are you sure this was a Ped product, and not one of the Indian mfg.ones? I'm sure guys on this site will be interested in how you make out.

 

[mooman76]

Well either way, I hope they resolve this for you.

 

[Columbus]

I just bought a Pedersoli Brown Bess carbine. I was apprehensive opening the box as I've had periodic issues with their QC in the past but this one is just about perfect. If you could use (for reference) pictures of the lock inletting and touch hole location as they should be just let me know.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I will not name the vendor as this has not been resolved yet and very well might end up resolved satisfactorily. I will name the manufacturer. It is one of Pedersoli's variants of the Brown Bess.

I purchased a brand new Ped Brown Bess variant last week. I received the gun today. Apon looking it over I have found several things that I do not like.

The most important is that the touchhole is literally at the bottom of the pan. Not a 1/16" off the bottom. No, it's fully at the bottom of the pan.

Next is the bore. The breech face forward to about 3" from the muzzle is like a mirror. That's great. The bad part is that it looks like someone honed or ground the bore from the crown of the muzzle down the bore about 3". Very curious looking.

Ped inletted the lock too deep. So someone (I'll assume Pedersoli) took and ground a large 1" long or so divot in the wood at the top of the lock so that the cock wouldn't drag on the wood. Even managed to grind into the top of the lock plate while hogging the wood away. Extremely sloppy.

While Pedersoli has never been known to have inletting that is perfect, generally speaking for a production gun Peds inletting is usually pretty darn good. I know, I own a few. Not this time. Trigger guard, forward ramrod pipe and entry pipe are very sloppy. Crude would be an apt term.

So I call the vendor. I was polite. The gentleman I ended up talking to said I would have to send it back and they would compare it to others in stock before making a determination on an exchange. That's all I really want is an exchange, not a refund. The gun is unfired and untampered with. I asked about a call tag so that I would not have to eat the shipping back. He did agree to that but not instantly. He claimed based on my description that the gun was NOT defective.

So forget about sloppy inletting for a minute. Forget about the curious situation with the bore near the muzzle. Forget about the hack job 'correcting' a lock plate inletted to deep. Am I wrong in assuming that a touchhole should be roughly in the sunset position in relation to the pan? To me a touchhole at the very bottom of the pan on a production gun should be cause for a return.

He said they would inspect it and get back to me on a solution. What say all of you? I do ask that this not turn into a nasty thread.

The "divot" above the lock is common on flintlock firearms. It allows the cock to stop on the ledge at the top of the lock plate. Dan

 

[NorthFork]

@springfield art

Yes it absolutely is a Pedersoli. This particular example is not what I would normally expect from Pedersoli. I like Ped. I buy Ped. I own a few Peds. Either I've been incredibly lucky in the past or this one is a Friday afternoon an hour before closing time gun.

@Russ T Frizzen I have seen the divots above the lock plate on percussion rifles but never a flintlock. However I'm sure it does happen from time to time. My issue with it is the way it was done.