What has more effect on POI, muzzle velocity or recoil.

[Doug Fay]

Until the laws of physics are repealed, recoil begins the moment the bullet begins to move.

Yup! Which reminds me of a real life story of somebody trying to do something akin to that - i.e., legislating the value of Pi:

"In 1897, Indiana's state legislature considered a bill that would have set the value of pi to 3.2, but the bill was indefinitely postponed before it could reach the state Senate. The bill, titled "A Bill for an act introducing a new mathematical truth", was introduced by Indiana State Representative Taylor I. Record."​

​

 

[nick_1]

seems pretty obvious that the reason we have tall front sights on magnum pistols is to help mitigate the effects of recoil induced muzzle rise.

 

[Greenjoytj]

seems pretty obvious that the reason we have tall front sights on magnum pistols is to help mitigate the effects of recoil induced muzzle rise.

I’ve never heard that explanation before.
So to demonstrate what you are saying. If a powerful magnum revolver that was proven to be sighted in to hit a target bullseye at 25 yards. Was then fixed into a Ransom shooting machine rest and aimed across the revolver sights to the target 25 yards away. Then a LASER bore sighting device was inserted into the muzzle of the revolver. Turning on the LASER a dot of light would appear on the target but where? At the same spot the revolver’s sights are pointing to?
Would the dot be on a spot below the line of sight by the approximate distance between the top of the sights to the center of the bore as in 2 parallel lines? Or would the LASER dot be a spot some distance below the parallel line idea. This extra low spot the bore LASER is pointing to is to compensate for muzzle rise during recoil?

This is all theoretical to me, as I do not know if the scenario I outlined above would be true if the experiment was actually performed.

It’s my understanding that the bore must be point upward a bit to launch the bullet up so it will cross the line of sight an reach some mid range hight above the line of sight then move downward to hit the bullseye of a distant target. I believe many firearms do have their bullet path and line of sight intersect at approximately 25 yards out depending on muzzle velocity.

 

[nick_1]

all I know is that .44 with a tiny short front sight shoots high as the sun. a bigger front sight makes it shoot lower. when I reduce a powder charge enough that it reduces recoil significantly it will lower my point of impact . is what it is.

 

[waksupi]

A light bullet will always shoot higher.

 

[45D]

A light bullet will always shoot higher.

Talking handguns here.

Mike

 

[Doug Fay]

A light bullet will always shoot higher.

I would have thought the opposite. Can you explain why that is?

 

[waksupi]

I would have thought the opposite. Can you explain why that is?

I stated that backwards. The HEAVY bullet will shoot higher. It relates to dwell time in the barrel.

 

[Doug Fay]

I stated that backwards. The HEAVY bullet will shoot higher. It relates to dwell time in the barrel.

Thanks! Now I can sleep again

Also, I think that a light bullet is more affected by wind resistance once it leaves the barrel and will fall more quickly. Like shooting a lead ball at 1000 ft per second vs. a cotton ball at the same speed.

 

[mikesto44]

Of all the guns I've owned and I'm no expert. I have worked on almost everyone of the triggers on them. If it's a stock I'm making modern or muzzleloaders. It has to fit me perfectly. After the triggers are adjusted for me. Then I work on a consistent load for the gun.
I've never believed in flyers. If I get one I've screwed up.. Except for factory ammo....it sucks..lol

 

[M. De Land]

Of all the guns I've owned and I'm no expert. I have worked on almost everyone of the triggers on them. If it's a stock I'm making modern or muzzleloaders. It has to fit me perfectly. After the triggers are adjusted for me. Then I work on a consistent load for the gun.
I've never believed in flyers. If I get one I've screwed up.. Except for factory ammo....it sucks..lol

I sure believe in fliers from my experience of many years of match shooting. When one learns to call their shots from much practice they will know if the out of group shot was them or not. I got so I could score myself very accurately from the trigger break sight picture before the spot for conformation and could score within a few points of the total just from the trigger break read. This is not at all unusual with much practice shooting and accurate load from a well tuned gun.

 

[Doug Fay]

Depends on the speed and weight of the bullet, length of the barrel and the recoil characteristics of the given firearm.

Short version is @waksupi is correct.

My personal experience with this is with 4" barreled .38 Special/.357magnum revolvers.

I learned this as a Border Patrol Trainee at the academy, a hundred years ago , where we shot thousands of rounds with our Smith 686s or Ruger GP100s (I had a Smith) with 4" barrels. Most of the rounds we fired were .38 Special wadcutters "practice/competition" rounds, but we also fired duty loads of .357 Magnum rounds. The Magnum rounds were lighter 110 gr JHP bullets, but at much higher velocity than the .38 rounds which were 148 gr HBWC.

After months of practice, there were two qualification courses to be shot, a longer one with more rounds with the .38 loads and then a shorter one with fewer magnum rounds. We were all keen to qualify, and as was our competitive nature, to try to qualify as high in the class as we could. Our instructor took our small group 4-5 of us aside and explained that the magnums and the .38s would have different points of impacts, the magnums shooting lower, no matter the distance. Those of us who listened, understood and believed his explanation (our instructors were among the best in the world at the time and all National Team members for BP) all qualified better than those who didn't get it. There was a quite marked difference, significant in scoring.

His explanation and what was actually happening? The much slower .38 Special rounds had a longer dwell time in the barrel and though they were heavier and going slower by the time they had exited the barrel the difference in that time between them and the much faster magnum rounds, fractions of a second, allowed the barrel to rise just that bit, prior to the slower heavier bullet exiting to raise the impact point. And so it was the case with every one of us, though we were all shooting identical or near identical revolvers with ammunition from the same lot off the same pallet straight from the factory. I understand there are mathematical ballistics formulas that illustrate this effect.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

Good story, and makes sense. Putting on my old engineering hat, the muzzle rise by the time the bullet leaves the barrel will be roughly proportional to the backwards acceleration of the gun times the the dwell time in the barrel squared (all other things, like weights of the two guns being roughly equal) - doubling the dwell time will more than double the muzzle rise.

 

[shorthair]

By the time you feel recoil and rise the bullet has left the barrel.

I'll disagree based on tests where a heavier slug hits higher than a lighter one at ranges out to 50 yards in unmentionable handguns.

 

[45man]

The video is funny as the barrel must weigh 50#. Pressure test equipment?

 

[M. De Land]

seems pretty obvious that the reason we have tall front sights on magnum pistols is to help mitigate the effects of recoil induced muzzle rise.

This became more obvious to me when I bought a Ruger Bisley with a 5.5 inch barrel in .45 Colt and began to shoot heavy 280 grain Kieth style bullets in it at 1300 fps. I had to replace the front blade with a much taller one to get enough elevation adjustment to hit bull with six o'clock hold at 25 yards.
I never noticed this with my percussion revolvers as I always shot balls in them but now that I've transitioned to heavier bullets instead of balls in the Walker I found the same need of a taller front sight.
I haven't chronographed the Walker load yet but will guess the 210 ACP bullet is moving along at 1100 or so with 48 grains of 3F Goex.

 

[stikshooter]

Does a flattened trajectory from velocity increase have more effect on vertical sight adjustment or does increase recoil and subsequent muzzle rise?

Recoil every time!/Ed

 

[Loyalist Dave]

WAY too much modern stuff here folks.

LD