What makes a Hawken?

[Gus]

You know my favorite movies of all time is Jerimiah Johnson. I really like it because I have a little bit of him in me, my family name is Johnson, and I once lived where the movie was shot. I know that country.

In it he talks about a 50 cal Hawken. If my history serves me well, a Hawken is a specific brand name of gun during that era, made by a man so named, and has recently come to be a certain style of gun.

Is a TC Renegade or New Englander similar to a Hawken? What do you think?

Gus

 

[CoyoteJoe]

You are quite right, a "genuine Hawken" is one made by Jake or Sam Hawken. I consider the time frame to be the tail end of the mountainman era and by then the Hawken name was well known as a fine rifle, sort of like Weatherby today.
The T/C renegade is very similar to a T/C Hawken but not at all similar to a "genuine Hawken", T/C just capitalized on the name to sell a rifle which bears no resemblance to its' namesake.
I had to chuckle at the line "he wanted a .50 or better but had to settle for a .30". A .30 caliber round ball compares to a modern .22 rimfire and would be of little use in the mountains, though he did kill that griz in the cabin! Right! :haha:

 

[shootemup]

Is a TC Renegade or New Englander similar to a Hawken? What do you think?

:shake:

 

[BrownBear]

Many folks think that Don Stith purveys the most lifelike Hawkens. Cruise his site and compare features with the TC and note the differences. Be aware that there were lots of variations in Hawkens, and Stith's collection is by no means comprehensive. Can't dredge up the name or the site, but Bill Ruger donated something like ten original Hawkens to the museum in Cody, Wyoming. Some searching might also turn up glimpses of those, too.

 

[rice1817]

Its been a long time, but I once read "The Crow Killer", the story of John "Liver Eating" Johnson on which the movie is based. As I recall, the author made the same mistake, calling Johnson's rifle a 30. I believe he meant to say that he carried a rifle with a ball of 30 to the pound, or about 54 caliber. That seems much more like it. Of course 30 may have been just a short way of saying "36" or "38" caliber. After all, he did get excited when he pried the real 50 from the frozen hands of Hatchet Jack!

In 1972, the black powder craze was just taking root. The producers used what was available to arm Redford, in his case an Investarms Hawken.

BTW, he came about the nickname "Liver Eating" honestly. Much like in the movie, the Crows were sending one warrior at a time after him. When Johnson would kill one, he would cut out his liver and take a bite out of it, then throw the rest of it on the body. Sort of his "trademark", a way of letting the Crow know exactly who they were messing with. The movie producers conveniently left that part out of the movie. (Or else the title song would be "Liver-eating Johnson made his way into the mountains".

 

[Mulebrain]

I don't know anything about that .50 cal Hawken from that movie :grin:

I know when he fires it for the first time, and darn near knocks him on his rear! Must have been a real heavy charge!

Hawken, has become a blanket name like Kleenex. The following are pics of a real one, but there were so many variations!

Many folks think they have a Hawken when they don't, but if that makes them happy! What the hell!

Here is a gun I recently redid, that is close to the real one above. To the untrained eye, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference

 

[jimmy82]

Well, I have a T/C Hawken, and just got a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken. I have not been able to compare locks or trigger mechs, but the biggest differences I notice were the end cap on the stock and the fact that the T/C only uses one barrel tang.

There is a site for a company that bought the rights to the Hawken name,[url] www.thehawkenshop.com[/url]; they have a section of pictures of original hawkens (pics of full stocks and halfstocks, but they are not very clear). They also sell kits that are "original" (or as close as you can get with modern technoledgy). They are very expensive though, but technically they are pure "Hawkens" because they own the trade mark and the patents.

Little tidbit, didn't know what this meant at the time but I do now. The kits come standard with a Getz barrel or you can upgrade to a Goodoien. I think I will probably be getting one of these next summer just because of the barrel :thumbsup:


Oh, and about the movie... he kills the bear with a .50 cal he found on a frozen trapper he found before running into Bearclaw.

 

Here are some pics of original Hawken rifles to compare with the modern factory built guns using the name.....

 

And a pair of Hawken pistols thrown in for good measure....

 

You are quite right, a "genuine Hawken" is one made by Jake or Sam Hawken. I consider the time frame to be the tail end of the mountainman era and by then the Hawken name was well known as a fine rifle, sort of like Weatherby today.
The T/C renegade is very similar to a T/C Hawken but not at all similar to a "genuine Hawken", T/C just capitalized on the name to sell a rifle which bears no resemblance to its' namesake.
I had to chuckle at the line "he wanted a .50 or better but had to settle for a .30". A .30 caliber round ball compares to a modern .22 rimfire and would be of little use in the mountains, though he did kill that griz in the cabin! Right! :haha:

Tail end of the mountain man era? Hawken rifles were carried by a few mountain men in the twenties and more of them in the 30's and became increasingly popular through the next three decades. I would say that the Hawken was carried through most of the mountain man era instead of the "tail end of the mountain man era". Lemans on the other hand show up at the "tail end of the mountain man era". There seems to be a popular vendetta against Hawken rifles in articles and forums since Hanson came out with his book, "The Hawken Rifle: It's Place in History". Although Hanson's book is a good one on Hawken rifles it includes only part of the records of the Hawken Shop production. In total, the surviving records of Hawken manufacture are scanty at best.

 

[bart_anastasi]

NO but lets calm down a minute.

Will a T/C Hawken or Renegade shoot as well as a original yes
Does it have adjustable sites yes.
Is it made to a original/changing pattern heck no every one is the same.

The Hawken boys were master gun makers makeing guns for people (I would think one at a time) and mabye some standard store guns for the trade. People walking into the shop and saying I need a gun getting fitted and their own tastes added.


T/C makes a factory rifle with standard good wood.
If a stock comes out with a particular grain that could be enhanced on the spot by the stock maker well lets remember cutting machines are not looking at the grain and saying ge I could do this or that here.

Not for nothing but I like my Renegade and find the butt plate much more comfortable the a TC Hawken. And looking at all the pretty pictures the slope of the butt on those guns does not look all that comfy to me.

As some one else will say you can get a true/original copy but be prepared to spend a bundle. Delux wood equals bucks and fancy carving has to be paid for.

 

[E Poffinbarger]

Actually I had never seen pictures of an original Hawkin rifle until now but was always told that the Lyman GPR-Hunter .54(Investarms SPA) is almost exactly like a real Hawkin.

Comparing the photos to mine, by golly fellas it does.

I'm impressed, however I still feel sorry for those of that era who carried it and all the other stuff everyday.

Osage

 

[smallmouth]

I note that all Hawkins are half stock. My understanding, and I have seen some well crafted reproductions. The earlyest of the Hawkins were actually full stocks, later the evolved to half stocks. Most guns like TC are "most" like a Hawkin. Of course they not "exactly" like the original nor do they try to be- to me that's O.K.

Sirjohn

 

[smallmouth]

oops, talked too soon-- Crooner posted full stock pics :surrender:

Sirjohn

 

[BrownBear]

I'm proud of my GPRs, but regard them as a basic plains rifle. Close to a Hawken or not, Lyman doesn't make that claim. They call them PLAINS rifles rather than Hawkens.

Good enough for me, cuzz I get to duck the Hawken debate and go have fun.

As you were.

Carry on.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

You are quite right, a "genuine Hawken" is one made by Jake or Sam Hawken. I consider the time frame to be the tail end of the mountainman era and by then the Hawken name was well known as a fine rifle, sort of like Weatherby today.
The T/C renegade is very similar to a T/C Hawken but not at all similar to a "genuine Hawken", T/C just capitalized on the name to sell a rifle which bears no resemblance to its' namesake.
I had to chuckle at the line "he wanted a .50 or better but had to settle for a .30". A .30 caliber round ball compares to a modern .22 rimfire and would be of little use in the mountains, though he did kill that griz in the cabin! Right! :haha:

I just started reading the book Crow Killer, and Del Gue said Johnson was still using that .30 in the 1860's. If he didnt have a .30, what did he use?

 

A quote from Charles E. Hanson Jr. seems appropriate here:
"Other things began to make an impression upon me. Men began to get so involved in arguments and theories about the superficial details of Hawken rifles that they seemed to forget common sense and good ethics in striving to have the last word."
Charles E. Hanson Jr., The Hawken Rifle, Its Place In History, 2003, pg. 6, paperback.

Also, the story of Liver Eating Johnson in "Crow Killer" just isn't true. I have the Spring 1983 copy of Old West Magazine (no longer in circulation) that pretty well debunks that story. The article was called "The Saga of Liver Eating Johnston, He Never Ate Crow by Harry J. Owens." In Johnston's own words he says that the story isn't true. In fact he was a friend of the Crow Indians and lived with them at different times in his life. He never had an Indian wife either according to a letter written by him. The book "Crow Killer" makes for interesting reading, but I'm sorry to say it is mostly fiction.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Whos to say the article you read was actually the way it happened?
:haha: A true story of history is hard to come by.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You are quite right, a "genuine Hawken" is one made by Jake or Sam Hawken. I consider the time frame to be the tail end of the mountainman era and by then the Hawken name was well known as a fine rifle, sort of like Weatherby today.
The T/C renegade is very similar to a T/C Hawken but not at all similar to a "genuine Hawken", T/C just capitalized on the name to sell a rifle which bears no resemblance to its' namesake.
I had to chuckle at the line "he wanted a .50 or better but had to settle for a .30". A .30 caliber round ball compares to a modern .22 rimfire and would be of little use in the mountains, though he did kill that griz in the cabin! Right! :haha:

I just started reading the book Crow Killer, and Del Gue said Johnson was still using that .30 in the 1860's. If he didnt have a .30, what did he use?

Never judge a book by it's movie. The passage is: " A Hawken rifle, brand new, of .30 caliber, cost Johnson fifty dollars. This was double the price charged at St. Louis - but not out of reason. It was the best make, and meant all the difference between life and death."

Now lets look at this. Lets say the rifle was made in 1843 ("brand new" and that's when the chapter starts). I'll bet you a dollar that if you look at a Hawken and it says "30" on the barrel flat that's not .30 caliber. That refers to the number of lead balls to the pound. Round ball molds were marked that way well into the 19th century. 7000/30 = 233 grains, or a .54 caliber.

As far as the T/C Renegade and New Englander? I have one of each and they are identical to a Hawken except for the lock, stock and barrels all being much different. The Renegade is vaguely similar in shape and has an octagonal barrel and the New Englander is only similar in that it loads from the muzzle. Both are dandy muzzleloaders and I had the New Englander out today trying to pester a whitetail with it. Just a wonderful deer rifle and my favorite of any I own, centerfires included. Very much more the style of a "poor boy" English sporting rifle of 1850 than a Hawken, though.

 

A quote from Charles E. Hanson Jr. seems appropriate here:
"Other things began to make an impression upon me. Men began to get so involved in arguments and theories about the superficial details of Hawken rifles that they seemed to forget common sense and good ethics in striving to have the last word."
Charles E. Hanson Jr., The Hawken Rifle, Its Place In History, 2003, pg. 6, paperback.

He also said, "There is just one last request. If you do read this book, please read it carefully and take it for what it says-no more and no less. I freely confess to having no patience at all with people addicted to repeating misquotes, half-quotes or material taken out of context." Hanson, page 6.

That is exactly what has happened in so many arguments over the years.