What makes a Hawken?

[Dphar]

You know my favorite movies of all time is Jerimiah Johnson. I really like it because I have a little bit of him in me, my family name is Johnson, and I once lived where the movie was shot. I know that country.

In it he talks about a 50 cal Hawken. If my history serves me well, a Hawken is a specific brand name of gun during that era, made by a man so named, and has recently come to be a certain style of gun.

Is a TC Renegade or New Englander similar to a Hawken? What do you think?

Gus

TC used the Hawken name to sell a product. It was well known and the name had been brought to the forefront of muzzleloading by a series of mag articles and a book in the mid-late 60s. TC just capitalized on the name since it was not trade marked.
Many people have made reproduction Hawken rifles that accurately depict the guns made in St Louis in the 19th century. TC is not one of these.

Dan

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Not real sure what you are saying here, but I am glad you like your Renegade.
And that straight stock will work great with a scope, too. You can't judge how comfortable a rifle is to shoot just by looking at it. A properly fitted true Hawken copy is a treat to shoot even with heavy loads--provided you mount it correctly. I wouldn't trade my Hawken for a wheelbarrow load of the best wannabees made in New Hampshire or Spain or Italy. It was worth every penny I spent for it.

 

[faw3]

Boy I go off for a month and... :shake: Stumpkiller ya killing me with "As far as the T/C Renegade and New Englander? I have one of each and they are identical to a Hawken except for the lock, stock and barrels all being much different. and I dont think I'd use the max 200 yard Hawken load of 200 grs of 2 F and up to 2 PRB on Bear's in one of those. This last year I tryed to get some of the beter named barrel maker's to copy the org inside barrel specs and was told it could be done it would run 500 in just time to try and reset the mch for the first taper...Soooo. And Cooner has got the rest along with some others. I like my 58 REN, if I ever get out of bed again thik I'l try and shoot this 2/10 gr by weight Ive read about and posted on here . Go down a few subjjts. Frd my hand hasss froze uppp byeeeee

 

All I can do is give you the reference. If you can find Old West magazine from the spring of 1983, you can check out the article for yourself. I would like to photocopy the article and convert it to a .pdf, but I am concerned that I would be violating copyright laws if I do.
However, from the article (page 11):
"Further, in an early letter, Johnston wrote in part.'I deny that I am or ever was a squaw man, or ever kept a squaw or wife or otherwise. Any statement to the contrary is a malicious falsehood.' This should put to rest the false legend of the 'Crow Killer.'"
Later in the article, Johnston himself writes about the possible genesis of the myth. There are several stories, all of which make sense, but none of them involve eating an actual Indian liver. So, you can cast doubt on the magazine article, but these are Johnston's own written words. "Crow Killer" is good fiction, nothing more (and I do have a copy of the book and believed the story too).

 

[Hawken Man .54]

Gentlemen,

As always this site has the best info on real Muzzleloading. I just finished a rifle from the Hawken Shop in Washington. Greg Roberts did most of the inletting and I finished it. It may not be the best job in the world but it shoots a ragged hole at 50 Yards. I use a Speer .235 Patched Round ball with Ox Yoke prelubed patches .010 over 120 Grains of Goex FFG. I use it to hunt and that is why I have a Fiberglass ramrod. I also use a Kaper over the nipple because of the weather here in NY this time of year. I have clocked this load at 2053 FPS with this charge. The barrel is a Match Goedien .54 tapered from 1 1/8 at the breach to 1 inch at the muzzle. I use it as a hunting rifle. If anyone orders from the Hawken Shop you will be well pleased.
How do I post a picture?

 

[Quirt Evans]

Hawken Man 54, regarding your Washington Hawken Shop Rifle...I've thought about doing the same...tell me more about the build - how much of a challenge is it? Also who is Greg Roberts? If I can find someone like him to do the inletting then I might be able to complete it myself. More info either here or off line.

Thanks!

 

[bart_anastasi]

A properly fitted true Hawken copy is a treat to shoot even with heavy loads--provided you mount it correctly. I wouldn't trade my Hawken for a wheelbarrow load of the best wannabees made in New Hampshire or Spain or Italy. It was worth every penny I spent for it.

Well I think what I am trying to say is that we should not expect to much PC from a company that is makeing a factory rifle for one thing.

Every company making ML's has had to make a set of decisions including how close or not close to a original they are going to be. Also things like the average american size and shape pull and marketability. Some companies have gone one way some another to a greater or lesser degree.

I recently saw a rifle with some really nice wood the sculpting of the stock in a hallowed out area and the hand cut chekering on the inside curve of the wood were a site to behold. But you can not insist on that level of detail on a reasonabley priced factory rifle.

Buy the way this is the first time anyone has ever told me that that stock shape can be comfortable. or a Hoot to Shoot. THANKS.

My point again is that to fit me perfectly is going to take a trip to a stock maker. Because I dont think a P/C repro is going to come in a varity of slopes but one (average shape). I have been called a lot of things over time, large, clumsley, fat, confused but never average. Just a thought.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

When the stock fits you properly, it will be very comfortable to shoot. And you can close your eyes and swing the rifle up and when you open your eyes you will be looking down the barrel with the sights perfectly aligned every time. These rifles are pleasant to shoot even with heavy loads--my .54 uses a 230 grain ball over 110 grains of GOX FFg and I've fired it all day with no discomfort. I do value my Hawken very highly and can see why they were the premium rifle back in the day.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Hawken Man 54, regarding your Washington Hawken Shop Rifle...I've thought about doing the same...tell me more about the build - how much of a challenge is it? Also who is Greg Roberts? If I can find someone like him to do the inletting then I might be able to complete it myself. More info either here or off line.

Thanks!

This calls for a new topic in "The Builder's Bench".

 

[shortstring]

Boy I go off for a month and... :shake: Stumpkiller ya killing me with "As far as the T/C Renegade and New Englander? I have one of each and they are identical to a Hawken except for the lock, stock and barrels all being much different. and I dont think I'd use the max 200 yard Hawken load of 200 grs of 2 F and up to 2 PRB on Bear's in one of those. This last year I tryed to get some of the beter named barrel maker's to copy the org inside barrel specs and was told it could be done it would run 500 in just time to try and reset the mch for the first taper...Soooo. And Cooner has got the rest along with some others. I like my 58 REN, if I ever get out of bed again thik I'l try and shoot this 2/10 gr by weight Ive read about and posted on here . Go down a few subjjts. Frd my hand hasss froze uppp byeeeee

What are these specs? I''ve never had the good fortune to handle a Hawken. Thanks

Paul

 

[Gus]

Thanks all. How interesting and entertaining these replies were. BTW, is that where the saying, "eating crow" came from? I need to take a trip to the library now.

Happy Thanksgiving all.

gus

 

[rebel727]

The term eating crow came from the great depression when people actually resorted to eating crow.

 

[faw3]

You'd find it in Baird's book on this great rifle The Mountain Mans Choice. Im fresh out of ER and th hospital and cant get to the book ( Im flat on my back in bed and they (oldst and youngst son) wont let me move -afraid I'll pull something( got a bunch of tubes running into my arms)out. But Ive put it up here a few time's and have it on a PM so heres the VERY short answer,in 1967 a near new 1840's was pulled apart after they had shot 20 shots at 50 yds and started with 70 grs of 2f and went up after 5 shots to 90, 110, then 103 and it had a displacement of 2x2 3/4" forthe 20 shots. This is a 50 cal 43" barrel, from the breach a slight taper up to 9 1/2" from muzz. ( 7 lands and groves ,lands cut with radius on top) at 9 1/2 you find the choke for 8" then a slight flare up to 1/4" from muzz end it flares .0005 to a "sudden" .002 that looked like rod wear but wasnt it was built in thought to be for easy loading you wouldn't want to bust your only rod way out in country, ater it was thought to stop rod wear. ??? That as close to notes and things I've put up th last few years that I can look back on. Hope that helps, and Ive been at this since 1971 and never touched a real Hawken till I got to hold 2 that have never had pics or ben reported on a collecter has here. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[shortstring]

Really nothing too wierd. I assume that by radius that you mean that as you would look at the land face on that it would be slightly concave? The 8" of choke would be uniform diameter as I understand it. Did it spell out what the bore taper was? Now days .005 to .0075 seems to be thought to be enough. I know I have tapered some a bit more & if you ain't careful you will blow patches with them.

Hope your medical situation goes well for you. Been there & done that.

Paul

 

[shortstring]

Actually I ment .0005 to .00075

Paul