What to expect with a flintlock
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It has been a number of years since I shot a flint regularly. I have a project gun that I'm building that will be flint. I also have a 45 cal flint CVA/Jukar pistol.
Flint is not that different from cap except for the ignition system. You will have to tolerate the flash in the pan as you shoot the gun, but for me that has never been a difficult transition. Maybe I was lucky to not develop a big flinch. A good flintlock will not have that much of a delayed ignition over a cap gun. Attention to the flint and keeping it sharp, wiping the flint and frizzen regularly will help keep it going off without too many flashes in the pan or failures to fire.
Others here who shoot flint regularly will have better information. My first muzzleloader was a mid 1970 CVA flintlock I built from a kit. It had the typical soft frizzen that would not produce a spark. I finally got a different frizzen that helped make it a shooter.
Flint is not that different from cap except for the ignition system. You will have to tolerate the flash in the pan as you shoot the gun, but for me that has never been a difficult transition. Maybe I was lucky to not develop a big flinch. A good flintlock will not have that much of a delayed ignition over a cap gun. Attention to the flint and keeping it sharp, wiping the flint and frizzen regularly will help keep it going off without too many flashes in the pan or failures to fire.
Others here who shoot flint regularly will have better information. My first muzzleloader was a mid 1970 CVA flintlock I built from a kit. It had the typical soft frizzen that would not produce a spark. I finally got a different frizzen that helped make it a shooter.
I think you will be very pleasantly surprised. I didn't know quite what to expect when I got my first several years ago, but this forum certainly had helped to prepare me with tips/techniques for reliable, consistent ignition.
If you start with a top quality lock you should not have issues. I have found that having a touch hole of 1/16" works well. I wipe the pan, flint, and frizzen face each shot at the range. Make sure you have a sharp flint properly positioned.
I have hunted with them in light rain/drizzle and heavy wet snow. Keeping the lock covered, or when I've been caught unexpectedly I just turn the gun upside down and tuck the lock under my armpit and keep the barrel pointed down, I have not had any undue ignition issues in the field. If wet or very humid, I check the pan frequently to see if the powder is "clumping" and if so, brush it out and replace it. Might be a little bit more "care" than with percussion, but not that much.
So, what should you expect? LOTS of fun! I sold off all but one percussion (my favorite Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken will always stay with me) and have built up my stock of flinters. There's just something about them that is very, very special!
Good luck in your search!
If you start with a top quality lock you should not have issues. I have found that having a touch hole of 1/16" works well. I wipe the pan, flint, and frizzen face each shot at the range. Make sure you have a sharp flint properly positioned.
I have hunted with them in light rain/drizzle and heavy wet snow. Keeping the lock covered, or when I've been caught unexpectedly I just turn the gun upside down and tuck the lock under my armpit and keep the barrel pointed down, I have not had any undue ignition issues in the field. If wet or very humid, I check the pan frequently to see if the powder is "clumping" and if so, brush it out and replace it. Might be a little bit more "care" than with percussion, but not that much.
So, what should you expect? LOTS of fun! I sold off all but one percussion (my favorite Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken will always stay with me) and have built up my stock of flinters. There's just something about them that is very, very special!
Good luck in your search!
They take some practice to learn to ignore a few of their idiosyncrasies.
First, the first time shooter will notice there is the very slight lag between pulling the trigger, hearing the flint hit the frizzen, seeing the flash and hearing the "Poof" of the priming lighting and then feeling the recoil of the gun firing.
I think it's interesting that all of these things happen in much less than 1/4 of a second but your mind will notice each of them.
With practice, you can learn to ignore all of these things (which are distracting).
You will learn to hold the gun on target and concentrate on the sight and target alignment much longer than you ever have done before.
You will learn that any flinch will cause your shot to go everywhere except where you want it to.
Although the old time flintlock shooters will deny this, there will be times when the lock works fine and the priming powder lights but the barrel refuses to fire.
If your flint is sharp and adjusted properly and the prime is good and there is fresh powder at the vent hole, usually the gun will fire. But not always.
Enough of these negative things.
On the other side of the coin, there is something about successfully shooting a flintlock that exists with no other gun. A satisfaction that comes from knowing you have done everything right.
You have done what many modern shooters who are used to instant gratification will never do with their guns.
Once you've learned to shoot a flintlock accurately, all of your training will transfer over to your other guns and the improvement in your marksmanship will boggle your friends minds.
That's a good reason to learn to shoot a flintlock right there, but if you are like many of us, those other guns will loose much of their attraction.
Rather than reaching for your modern super duper "hits anything I can see every time" gun you will find yourself reaching for the flintlock and shooting bag with a small smile on your face.
First, the first time shooter will notice there is the very slight lag between pulling the trigger, hearing the flint hit the frizzen, seeing the flash and hearing the "Poof" of the priming lighting and then feeling the recoil of the gun firing.
I think it's interesting that all of these things happen in much less than 1/4 of a second but your mind will notice each of them.
With practice, you can learn to ignore all of these things (which are distracting).
You will learn to hold the gun on target and concentrate on the sight and target alignment much longer than you ever have done before.
You will learn that any flinch will cause your shot to go everywhere except where you want it to.
Although the old time flintlock shooters will deny this, there will be times when the lock works fine and the priming powder lights but the barrel refuses to fire.
If your flint is sharp and adjusted properly and the prime is good and there is fresh powder at the vent hole, usually the gun will fire. But not always.
Enough of these negative things.
On the other side of the coin, there is something about successfully shooting a flintlock that exists with no other gun. A satisfaction that comes from knowing you have done everything right.
You have done what many modern shooters who are used to instant gratification will never do with their guns.
Once you've learned to shoot a flintlock accurately, all of your training will transfer over to your other guns and the improvement in your marksmanship will boggle your friends minds.
That's a good reason to learn to shoot a flintlock right there, but if you are like many of us, those other guns will loose much of their attraction.
Rather than reaching for your modern super duper "hits anything I can see every time" gun you will find yourself reaching for the flintlock and shooting bag with a small smile on your face.
+1 to all that Zonie said. He is absolutely right.
If you like muzzleloader shooting, then going to flintlock is the next step. The reason I say this is because if you like muzzleloader shooting, then you must not be in the instant gratification crowd in which you buy a rifle with a scope, buy ammunition and then slap yourself on the back when you hit the target every time.
My point is that when you hit the target or animal with a flintlock, you know that you have had a hand in every part of the operation and you did it right.
If you like muzzleloader shooting, then going to flintlock is the next step. The reason I say this is because if you like muzzleloader shooting, then you must not be in the instant gratification crowd in which you buy a rifle with a scope, buy ammunition and then slap yourself on the back when you hit the target every time.
My point is that when you hit the target or animal with a flintlock, you know that you have had a hand in every part of the operation and you did it right.
Don't do it ! Flintlocks are contagious there's a special dark magic there just waiting to drag you into its spell...1st there 1 then 2 then ....... Well you get the picture :haha:
Don Steele
45 Cal.
If you get a quality lock and good flints the transition may not be too bad at all.
Over the years, a lot of folks have become frustrated and as a result, maligned flintlocks...because they started out with poor quality equipment and didn't stick around long enough to know better. There is a new "Skill set" you will have to have, which takes time. I call it "Rock Management". Previous responses have mentioned it in part. It is the whole process which starts with selecting a good gun flint, properly installing it in YOUR lock..( they're all a little different), getting the correct geometry in relation to the frizzen, knowing when your flint needs help..either simply cleaning it or knapping a new edge. Of course..learning HOW TO knap that edge, while it's on the gun so you can keep on shooting will be a whole new skill to you. Once you get all this down..you will find you get a LOT longer life out of your flints, and a LOT more fun out of your rifle. :thumbsup:
ENJOY the journey..!!!
Over the years, a lot of folks have become frustrated and as a result, maligned flintlocks...because they started out with poor quality equipment and didn't stick around long enough to know better. There is a new "Skill set" you will have to have, which takes time. I call it "Rock Management". Previous responses have mentioned it in part. It is the whole process which starts with selecting a good gun flint, properly installing it in YOUR lock..( they're all a little different), getting the correct geometry in relation to the frizzen, knowing when your flint needs help..either simply cleaning it or knapping a new edge. Of course..learning HOW TO knap that edge, while it's on the gun so you can keep on shooting will be a whole new skill to you. Once you get all this down..you will find you get a LOT longer life out of your flints, and a LOT more fun out of your rifle. :thumbsup:
ENJOY the journey..!!!
mancill
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Yes Zonie I am not part of the instant gratification crowd as I have been hunting with longbows and wooden arrows exclusively for years and Muzzleloaders is a return to guns.
Now several times yall have mentioned the quality of a lock. How would I know the difference. Keep in mind that I would have to order a gun as there is no place around to buy one locally.
Now several times yall have mentioned the quality of a lock. How would I know the difference. Keep in mind that I would have to order a gun as there is no place around to buy one locally.
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Good advice throughout.
I made the jump to flintlocks a number of years ago when a friend of mine offered me a Lyman Great Plains Rifle.
I bought it. Did a little research. Bought some black English flints and some yellow French ones also. Bought BP in FFg and FFFFg. Bought LRBS and patches. Powder measure. Priming powder nmk
Made up some moosemilk for cleaning.
And, y'know, getting all of that ready was the hardest part.
The gun shot just fine.
Pete
I made the jump to flintlocks a number of years ago when a friend of mine offered me a Lyman Great Plains Rifle.
I bought it. Did a little research. Bought some black English flints and some yellow French ones also. Bought BP in FFg and FFFFg. Bought LRBS and patches. Powder measure. Priming powder nmk
Made up some moosemilk for cleaning.
And, y'know, getting all of that ready was the hardest part.
The gun shot just fine.
Pete
don hepler
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All good advice. I've been shooting flints for a few years now. I shoot with a group of 8 to 10 shooters. We meet once a month for casual shooting. We have two husband/wife shooters. We all shoot custom rifles with Siler locks. In the three months that we have been meeting, not one rifle has failed to fire, and one Saturday it rained. We are shooting from a covered shelter. Some of the cap lock shooters join us each month. They are the ones with the FTF's. I had one delay, the day it rained. My fault, I didn't get the pan and touch hole clean enough.
You just can't beat a good lock and good flint. My son-in-law has turned to look, and thought that I was shooting a center-fire. Four or five shots at the range,with a flintlock, is better than a hundred with a modern firearm.
You just can't beat a good lock and good flint. My son-in-law has turned to look, and thought that I was shooting a center-fire. Four or five shots at the range,with a flintlock, is better than a hundred with a modern firearm.
hadden west said:
:thumbsup: And at the range I go to, that's about the ratio I see too! The modern crowd sure likes to put a lot of expensive ammunition down range very, very quickly!
Until my eyes turned bad, I shot both MLers and CFs and the flintlocks really taught me how to shoot because my CF shooting became much more accurate.
Judging from many posts, ignition w/ a flintlock poses problems which don't happen w/ a caplock.
A quality flintlock is a must, a proper TH is a necessity, a light trigger pull determines accuracy and a proper cleaning procedure is responsible for reliable ignition.
I use Chambers flintlocks on all my builds and they're a quality lock w/ a lifetime warranty.
A White Lightning TH liner ensures reliable and quick ignition....in fact, after shooting flint for many years, the first time I used a White Lightning, I didn't like it. I was used to a lag and the WL was much quicker and I thought that the fun of shooting a flint was gone. Not so after shooting it a lot. Of course a proper installation is necessary.
A light trigger pull on a flintlock is to me more important than when shooting a caplock....as is follow through.
How one cleans their flintlock many times determines whether ignition is reliable....before starting to shoot and while shooting if one chooses to clean the bore between shots or otherwise.
If a so-so flintlock rifle is bought, problems can arise which will "test" one's resolve to persist in shooting a flintlock...but w/ a quality flintlock rifle, the shooting is pure enjoyment....more so than w/ a caplock , IMO.....Fred
Judging from many posts, ignition w/ a flintlock poses problems which don't happen w/ a caplock.
A quality flintlock is a must, a proper TH is a necessity, a light trigger pull determines accuracy and a proper cleaning procedure is responsible for reliable ignition.
I use Chambers flintlocks on all my builds and they're a quality lock w/ a lifetime warranty.
A White Lightning TH liner ensures reliable and quick ignition....in fact, after shooting flint for many years, the first time I used a White Lightning, I didn't like it. I was used to a lag and the WL was much quicker and I thought that the fun of shooting a flint was gone. Not so after shooting it a lot. Of course a proper installation is necessary.
A light trigger pull on a flintlock is to me more important than when shooting a caplock....as is follow through.
How one cleans their flintlock many times determines whether ignition is reliable....before starting to shoot and while shooting if one chooses to clean the bore between shots or otherwise.
If a so-so flintlock rifle is bought, problems can arise which will "test" one's resolve to persist in shooting a flintlock...but w/ a quality flintlock rifle, the shooting is pure enjoyment....more so than w/ a caplock , IMO.....Fred
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Chambers makes great locks, and they are building the Siler locks as well these days. Davis makes very good locks. Lyman makes good locks. Pedersoli has good locks on many of their rifles or smooth bores....so in that order (imho).
I think the best "bang for the buck" for a factory flintlock for hunting or shooting is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54, and in a long rifle it's the Pedersoli Frontier aka the Cabela's Blue Ridge Hunter in .54 (look for either when they are on sale).
For a built rifle I like anything from 38" or longer in a swamped barrel in .45 - .54, and a Golden Age (large Siler) lock by Chambers...single trigger too.
Zonie Wrote:
I might add that the "bragging rights", even if you keep them to yourself, are much much better when you have bagged a deer, especially in poor weather, with the flinter....instead of one of those all weather, optics guided, so far away from the deer it's in a different zip code, rifles. Those that still shoot only those rifles will often mention your name with respect as the fellow who "gets deer with one o' them Daniel Boone guns".
LD
I think the best "bang for the buck" for a factory flintlock for hunting or shooting is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .54, and in a long rifle it's the Pedersoli Frontier aka the Cabela's Blue Ridge Hunter in .54 (look for either when they are on sale).
For a built rifle I like anything from 38" or longer in a swamped barrel in .45 - .54, and a Golden Age (large Siler) lock by Chambers...single trigger too.
Zonie Wrote:
I might add that the "bragging rights", even if you keep them to yourself, are much much better when you have bagged a deer, especially in poor weather, with the flinter....instead of one of those all weather, optics guided, so far away from the deer it's in a different zip code, rifles. Those that still shoot only those rifles will often mention your name with respect as the fellow who "gets deer with one o' them Daniel Boone guns".
LD
:thumbsup: to everyone above. I have been shooting rock in the locks since 70s. A funny thing happens is the pause tween tigger pull and shot. I will let novices and visitors at a range fire my guns. They all mention a pause. For the life of me I can't tell any time lag, it feels instant to me.
A person who can learn a cap lock will learn a flinter without trouble, and likly come quickly to prefer smoke in your eyes.
A person who can learn a cap lock will learn a flinter without trouble, and likly come quickly to prefer smoke in your eyes.
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flehto said:
I could not agree more because it teaches one much better follow through.
When my best friend in life and I were the Junior Armorers on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team in 1975, the Team was looking for a way to improve offhand scores. My friend suggested the Team get some flintlocks and use them for some offhand practice and I heartily agreed. Yeah, at first they thought we were crazy....
However, one of the better shooters (one of our Distinguished Riflemen) took us up on our invitation to come and shoot at the local Black Powder match we ran each month at Quantico. He did not want to try a flintlock, but did borrow one of my friend's original percussion rifles to shoot. After shooting in the matches that day, he came over and apologized and said he noticed the lag time even with a percussion rifle and saw those of us who shot flints had a little more lag time. Then he understood and agreed about having the shooters practice with flintlocks to shoot better offhand scores.
To the OP,
I began shooting MLr's with a percussion TC .50 caliber Hawken, but thanks to my friend, soon switched to flint. The main reason I wanted to go flint was because there were no percussion guns in the 18th century and that was the period I was interested in competing and reenacting. I shot my Navy Arms Flintlock Brown Bess Carbine in local "Trade Gun" matches and at Friendship, IN. I also shot a .45 cal. Flintlock Long Rifle I borrowed from my friend. It made me a MUCH better rifleman.
In 1980, I was transferred, so UnCivil War reenacting was the local thing. However, I first used my Brown Bess Carbine, which was still correct for a Southron. Most of the guys had never seen a flintlock fired and they were shocked mine went off almost as many times as percussion guns and more than some guys who did not take care of their percussion muskets.
In 1988, I shot a 249 out of 250 on the Rifle Requalification Range at Quantico and thus tied the eight Marines in history for the All Time High Score. (I recently found out no one has shot a 249 or 250 since then on that range.) When asked how I did it, I told them I had learned to shoot a FLINTLOCK rifle Offhand. Yeah, got more looks and comments about "that black powder stuff," but I still laugh about it.
Bottom line, learn to shoot a Flintlock and it will add a new level of enjoyment to your shooting.
Gus
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Tenngunn, the reason you do not sense the lag time in a flintlock is because many of us flint shooters are a 'little slow' :rotf: :slap: :metoo: George.
:rotf: :surrender: I resemble that remark
hoochiepapa
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It seems that L&R locks get left out of the discussion when "good" locks are mentioned. I built two rifles around L&R percussion locks. Then I got the bug and converted both to flint. I will never look back.
As others have said, Chambers, who makes a large number of different style flintlocks probably ranks as the best locks.mancill said:
His company makes the "Siler" lock which is the most talked about and most common.
Locks by Davis Co. and L&R Lock Co. make a large number of different styles and they are good as well.
After mentioning these "best locks" the unfortunate part of the story is, these locks are the kind that most custom rifle builders use.
Your finding a custom gun where you live is going to be close to finding hens teeth.
Getting to the guns you are more likely to find, they will all be made by the big factories or sold by the big importers.
The list given by Loyalist Dave in his post above is a good place to start with these guns.
To keep you from having to look them up, here is what he said:
He didn't mention Thompson Center and that omission was probably because all of the early TC flintlocks had a bad habit of being flint bashers. That is, the early TC's often broke off their flints razor sharp edge within 8-15 shots.
This was due to a problem with the cock (hammer) and frizzen design.
TC redesigned their flintlock in the '90's and the redesigned locks work very well.
To know if you are looking at a new TC flintlock or an old one, the old one will have a color case hardened frizzen on it and the lower part of its cock (hammer) will have gently curving, graceful sweeping S shaped bend.
The new redesigned TC flintlock frizzen is not color case hardened. Rather it is just a Black Oxide color.
The cock also lacks the sweeping S shaped bend in the lower area. It was replaced by more of a "blob". Check out this photo to see the blob shape I'm talking about.
If your looking at a TC, remember: Blob shaped cock and black frizzen = GOOD
"S" shaped cock and color case frizzen = BAD
Now, to the CVA and Tradition imports.
The very early CVA flintlocks were basically pretty crummy.
The locks didn't have a support for the tumbler the mainspring pushes against, the frizzens were often low carbon steel with a thin case hardening and they tended to eat flints like popcorn.
In the '80's and '90's, the locks were improved and by the time Traditions took over the job of importing them they were actually pretty good.
Pretty good still leaves a lot to be desired.
L&R Lock has come to the rescue with these and several other factory made flintlocks by making a rather good replacement flintlock for them.
It isn't a "drop in" lock for some of the guns it is designed to be used in but with some minor wood removal to clear the new locks inners it will drop into place.
The only problem with these replacement locks IMO is they cost about $150 and often the rifles they are made to work on aren't worth a lot more than the cost of the lock.
Hope this helps.
