What type of rifle would have been in use...Colonial upstate NY?

[Daveboone]

Good Day! I have long wanted a quality long rifle...will see use both for deer hunting and target. My hope is for a type that would have been typical of a hunter/ pioneering settler (C 1770s to 1820s)-in Upstate NY (that is, most anyplace west of the Hudson, but my families roots are more from the south central part of the state...Binghamton, Cortland, Syracuse, but certainly also with a history in the Mohawk River region, People of relatively modest means, so heavy on the utilitarian and light on the adornment/carving, inlays. Probably to be historically correct a smooth bore or strait rifling would have been in order, but I will make concessions for a rifled bbl for my use.
I am heavily leaning to a Kibler Colonial, thinking the style would well have traveled the corridor upstate through the Cherry Valley, etc?
Whatcha think? This was a heavily settled Dutch/German area originally, but would the Jaegers really have been in much use?
Thanks for thoughts

 

[Grenadier1758]

Upstate New York? Probably would have been a smooth bore and not a rifle. Rifles seem to be more southern and western into Kentucky and Ohio.

Lots of good examples can be found in Grinslade's book, "Flintlock Fowlers".

FLINTLOCK FOWLERS, the First Guns Made in America, photos of rare very early American guns, 1700 to 1820, soft bound, 248 pages, by Tom Grinslade - Track of the Wolf

 

[Boston123]

From my admittedly-limited research, rifles weren't really common in the Northeast. New Englanders used smoothbores pretty.much exclusively, and upstate New York is right next door.

 

[painter]

I think a Kibler Colonial with a smoothbore barrel, in your choice of caliber, would be perfect.

 

[appalichian hunter]

What about a Hudson valley fowler.

 

[Daveboone]

Considering the famous Greene Mountain Boys (Vermont, Eastern NY ) were famous riflemen, and that of course conditions in Pennsylvania at the time were similar to NY....and they certainly had plenty of riflemen, I cant help but think there must have been as many rifles at least through the area. NY was truly a frontier throughout the 1700s, as Kentucky, Ohio, etc. were not too later. But then on second thought, what was the prevalence of the famous Pennsylvania rifle in those areas to the more modest, affordable and and boring smoothbores?

 

[tenngun]

1770-1820 is a long time.
Folks pointing out the use of smoothbore as common, and this is true at the front end of your time.
After the F and I rifles were moving upstate and by 1800 a New York style rifle did evolve as by 1810 a rifle made in New York of Connecticut would have been easily avalible. By this time the Federal ‘golden age’ rifle was seen.
Guns can wear out but if well taken care of could last a lifetime or more. On the one edge an old Hudson valley fowler may still be seen, possibly altered with a shorter barrel, or an older ‘transitional rifle’ may have been bought used. By 1790-1800 one may have bought a new rifle and all the fancy trimming.
How old are you in 1820?
A sixty year old may be happy with the fowler he had at fifteen, while a thirty year old might want a new rifle.
Rifle mounted fusils, what we now call a smooth rifle was not uncommon. Straight rifeling had become rare

 

[rich pierce]

Considering the famous Greene Mountain Boys (Vermont, Eastern NY ) were famous riflemen, and that of course conditions in Pennsylvania at the time were similar to NY....and they certainly had plenty of riflemen, I cant help but think there must have been as many rifles at least through the area. NY was truly a frontier throughout the 1700s, as Kentucky, Ohio, etc. were not too later. But then on second thought, what was the prevalence of the famous Pennsylvania rifle in those areas to the more modest, affordable and and boring smoothbores?

Green Mountain Boys were not riflemen.

 

[rich pierce]

Sir William Johnson could find no rifle makers in New York and brought a couple Pennsylvania gunsmiths into the Mohawk Valley. Surely he knew everything happening in the colony. A few fancy rich aristocrats and many Iroquois in NY owned rifles but common white farmers and merchants and laborers were not known to own rifles much if at all before 1800.

There were no pioneer hunters in the colony of New York. There were farmers, often described as poorly armed, on the frontier. New York land was all OWNED by somebody. It was not at all like Kentucky and so on. One could not simply go out and build a cabin or do a long hunt. It has been exhaustively trapped by the Iroquois and Hurons since the early 1600’s if not earlier. Tribes owned lands not deeded to whites.

 

[Daveboone]

Hmmmm, lotsa food for though. I am not very far from Fort Stanwix , the old Herkimer Home historic site and the Johnson historic site. I wonder what they have to display? I have been to two of the three, but just dont remember. As well, Fort Oswego is an hour away...I will also google the Albany state museum, and Cooperstown has a fine p;ioneer museum. Time for some visits, if everything is opened back up.
I have quite a collection of local histories, biographies, etc. There was a great deal of settling and squatting, alot of it very long term (hell, my mothers family were squatters well into the twentieth century in northern Cortland County), but if they were that poor it certainly points to old well used fowlers, etc.

 

[Magungo1066]

By the 1770s New York was pretty much fully "settled". Most of the large game was hunted out in the Northeast by the 1770s, so there was really no need for a rifle. The majority of the hunters at this time would have had a smoothbore for small game shooting. Passenger pigeons were shot in ridiculous numbers for one example. Small game was plentiful far after the elk and buffalo were hunted out in the Northeast. The style would depend on where in New York the individual lived, as well as where said individual was from.

 

[rich pierce]

The Old Stone Fort in Schoharie is worth a visit. Like many museums some of their guns were not verified by arms experts. Don’t believe what they say about the supposed Tim Murphy rifle. But they have nice Hudson Valley fowlers, militia muskets, and so on.

 

[Magungo1066]

Hmmmm, lotsa food for though. I am not very far from Fort Stanwix , the old Herkimer Home historic site and the Johnson historic site. I wonder what they have to display? I have been to two of the three, but just dont remember. As well, Fort Oswego is an hour away...I will also google the Albany state museum, and Cooperstown has a fine p;ioneer museum. Time for some visits, if everything is opened back up.
I have quite a collection of local histories, biographies, etc. There was a great deal of settling and squatting, alot of it very long term (hell, my mothers family were squatters well into the twentieth century in northern Cortland County), but if they were that poor it certainly points to old well used fowlers, etc.

I wanted to add that if you truly want a rifle, get one. Nothing is set in stone and maybe someone from that area of New York had business in PA, and picked up a rifle along his journey. If this gun is for hunting you will be happier with a rifle probably. Much easier to shoot accurately, with much farther range.

 

[rich pierce]

Movies, TV, and books have led us to think that the likes of Daniel Boone and other long hunters were found from Maine to Georgia. Characters like Boone and Simon Kenton and others are famous because they were rare. Farmers homesteading and clearing and planting new land were much more common. We like to think such fellas routinely took a few days off to up and go exploring or hunting, but who milks the cows, feeds the horses, shears the sheep, cuts the wood, builds the house and barn, digs the well, plows the fields, cuts the hay, plants the crops and vegetables, and raises the kids while he’s gone? In my experience subsistence farmers/homesteaders with animals have little to no time off. If they do take time off for other pursuits they will soon be poor or divorced or both.

 

[Magungo1066]

Exactly as Rich said. These individuals were not hunting bison or elk at 100 yards. They were shooting squirrels or rabbits if they managed to get some spare time after church. Outside of serving in the Revolution, the average person had not, and would not ever fire their gun at another person. A shotgun on the farm is about as good a tool as one can have, and this was true during the 1700s as well. Having a smoothbore would have been very versatile for the average individual in the 1770s, because it could also serve as the (required) militia gun that every man was expected to own. Finally there was the cost element. Rifles were more expensive than smoothbores, so the average Joe probably did not consider it a good investment when compared to a smoothbore. Contemporary men of the time such as Daniel Boone used rifles because they relied on them exclusively to shoot the big game that lie beyond the frontier for hides.

 

[Daveboone]

Thanks for these great thoughts and responses. Ultimately a rifle is what will be shot the most by me, which will dictate which direction. I think it will still be fun and worthwhile to haunt the local historic sites/etc. to see what they have. Of course, the ADKS were settled and heavily hunted much later than the rest of the state, for local meat market mostly. The guns of that region and time (mid to later 1800s) were everything under the sun, but largely smoothbore. Heck, most of Upstate was "smoothbore only" ...shotgun only, for deer until only very recently. Pictures from deer camp c. the 1970s that I have, show mostly shotguns...this in the ADKS. Workingmans gun.

 

[George]

I have no idea how this reference fits into the question, but maybe someone will. In 1760 Warren Johnson visited his famous older brother Sir Wm. Johnson in New York, about 40 miles north of Albany. He kept a journal during his visit, and on Jan. 24. 1761, made this entry:

"They are remarkable at Philadelphia for making rifled barrel guns which throw a ball above 300 yards vastly well and much better than any other barrels. People here in general shoot very well with ball, but don't do much with shot."

Spence

 

[Mike Payne]

Sounds like the folks in that area shot round ball in smooth bores and rifles were a rare thing. I my be wrong but that's what I get out of it. Wish he would have said if they were shooting bare ball or patched!

 

[Boatncamp]

Hmmmm, lotsa food for though. I am not very far from Fort Stanwix , the old Herkimer Home historic site and the Johnson historic site. I wonder what they have to display? I have been to two of the three, but just dont remember. As well, Fort Oswego is an hour away...I will also google the Albany state museum, and Cooperstown has a fine p;ioneer museum. Time for some visits, if everything is opened back up.
I have quite a collection of local histories, biographies, etc. There was a great deal of settling and squatting, alot of it very long term (hell, my mothers family were squatters well into the twentieth century in northern Cortland County), but if they were that poor it certainly points to old well used fowlers, etc.

If you are talking about the Farmer's Museum in Cooperstown when you say "Cooperstown has a fine pioneer museum" there are no firearms there that I have ever seen and I visit at least once a year. The village was filled with museums until the mid 1970's when they started closing and their contents were sold off.
Do check out Old Stone Fort in Schoharie. Some of the towns in around Cherry Valley have their own small museums but I admit that I have never visited them as they all have limited hours and have been closed over the past year.
If your family has German roots perhaps a Jaeger, if not I would stick with a fowler. If going for after the AWI then a converted musket or before then something along the lines of a Hudson Valley fowler.

The Southern Tier was barely settled until after the war. I live in Otsego County and while the northern parts of the county (Cherry Valley) had many farms and some small towns the southern parts were primarily native American controlled with only a few farms.

Pick something that makes you happy. Life is short.

Woody

 

[oreclan]

I've just read the book "Revolutionary Rangers Daniel Morgan's Riflemen and Their Role on the Northern Frontier 1778-1783" by Richard B. LaCrosse, Jr.
In this book writes about the campaigns of the Virginia and Pennsylvania riflemen under Morgan. After the battles around Saratoga some the riflemen stayed in the area and joined the militia/ rangers and participated in many actions in upstate New York. Some of those who returned to Schoharie were Timothy Murphy, William Leek, Zachariah Tufts Joseph Evans, David Ellerson, and many others.
The point is there were rifles used to good effect in campaigns on the New York frontier during this period. Some of these men married local women and stayed or moved west.