Where do you draw the line?

[nightwolf1974]

Make smoke and noise. At least we don't have to worry about unfriendlies trying to take our scalps, our women, our kids, and our kinfolk.

Then stay away from any city.......

 

[gunnyr]

I like the old ways and things. But I'm old enough to know that my ways are not for everyone else. Everyone has to
find what they like and are happy with. So for me and me alone my answer has to be no to all.
gunny

 

[morehops52]

I have two lines in the sand. No in-lines, no poaching. prob a few lesser.

 

[Ninering62]

Just curious and to keep from hi jacking a different thread

How HC/PC are you comfortable with.

I have been known to leave my keys in the truck and use the door code in order to not have anything modern on my person at an event.

Are you ok with a plastic/delrin/fiberglass ramrod?
Ok with a plastic stock?
Ok with fiber optic sights?
Ok with a scope?
Ok with an in-line

Not for others just for yourself.

Maybe this should be a poll?

Yes, absolutely to everything above. Though this is a " tradidional " oriented forum, I mostly shoot & prefer modern muzzleloaders & even my traditional ML's ( the very few I've had ) get modified or use powder sub's & with better projectiles. I never have any use for someone elses tiny box of parameters they dwell in. Nothing is " off limits " or not subject to change or improvement with me, & I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[TFoley]

I find that all these averse comments about archery are pretty funny.

Let's see, we started shooting animals with a gun for food around 600 years ago, right?

And we started shooting animals with a bow for food around 100,000 years ago, right?

I'd say that archery clearly has pride of place here.

 

[Jake2454]

i think the distinction should be made between modern inlines and production reproductions.i saw a basball game once where a home run was taken away from george brett because the pine tar on his bat was too far up the barrel. later the home run was allowed because the pine tar did not affect the flight of the ball. a synthetic stock does not affect the flight of the ball.
if an event is strictly hc/pc then the rules are the rules....but a synthetic stock does not affect the flight of the ball....just sayin

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

As far as general use goes, I'm Ok with pretty much everything you mentioned.
They had scopes pre-1865 (Sir Issac Newton experimented with them, King Frederick II of Prussia had optical sights on a couple guns, ect), and nice, reproduction-type ones fit with these guns just fine.
They had inlines pre-1800 (Tower of London has several in inventory, and there are several in private collections)
They had bullets pre 1830 (There are a few Henry Knock pieces from the 1790's that were meant to use polygonal prisms in polygonal rifling)
They had nice, usable/accommodating for range, practical sights, pre 1800
I don't like plastic, traditionally-shaped stocks (they look cheap, IMO)
Delrin, stainless, steel, aluminum, and brass rods are fine (I don't like fiberglass after picking slivers out of my hands working with planter boxes made of the stuff) (don't particularly care for wood either); If they are colored, dyed, polished, or finished to look like they fit with the gun.

Reenactments- well, you are trying to recreate life/events in the past and present that to spectators, so yah, you should do everything you can to have accurate clothing and kit. The cloth doesn't have to be home-spun, but it needs to look and feel close to what it would have been. The gun can have a factory-made screw in it, but it needs to look and function right, and the pots, canteens, tankards, pipes, pouches, tarps, lines, and stakes need to be right (not to say you can't cheat a little and line your canteen with a poly liner, or use a stainless cup that has been made to look like pewter, and there are types of plastic that look like horn). Reenactment is every bit as serious a hobby as shooting, so approach it that way, IMO.

Biggest thing is don't present "oddities and novelties" associated with your persona as being representative of what most people had, and you're fine; I think too many get hung up on what the "average person" had, that they miss that everyone had/has a story, and was/is an individual.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Just curious and to keep from hi jacking a different thread

How HC/PC are you comfortable with.

I have been known to leave my keys in the truck and use the door code in order to not have anything modern on my person at an event.

Are you ok with a plastic/delrin/fiberglass ramrod?
Ok with a plastic stock?
Ok with fiber optic sights?
Ok with a scope?
Ok with an in-line

Not for others just for yourself.

Maybe this should be a poll?

The line I draw is for me, as you asked. I'm blessed with very good eyesight at just about 60 years of age. IF the guy next to me on the range needs a scope, so what? If he feels he needs stainless steel, and plastic, so what. The only real question is, "Will he share venison?"

The other "line" which concerns me is what is drawn for an organized event....

It's the event organizer's "sandbox" and IF I want to play, then I follow their rules, and if I don't like the rules, I vote-with-my-feet, and leave, or don't attend. It's quite simple.

There is a show that I once attended that was a complete ripoff. Some of us who bought tables at the "firehall" were given tables next to the actual fire equipment in the unheated garage in winter, not in the hall, and there was no sign telling attendees that there were more tables in the garage. OH but the promoter's girlfriend had a huge space where she was giving neck and shoulder massage in the main hall (at the gun show and indoor market fair). He was and is a thief (imho) so I will go as a tourist but NEVER again as a seller, as the other sellers who appear there are not responsible for his thefts.

So when I'm at a rondezvous... the rules are less specific in most cases, than when I'm at The Fort Frederick Market Faire. The rules are only my rules when I'm doing a solo trek

IF I'm at a "muzzleloader shoot" at my local range, I'm expecting a lot of non-traditional rifles and a lot of ignorant remarks, but I get compliments too. I don't need to attend so it's my choice. I often bring an Ipad (concealed in my haversack) and show the nay-sayers images of the deer and the rabbits, pheasants, chukkar, and squirrel that I've harvested over the years with traditional rifles and guns. I don't begrudge a guy who uses something modern that qualifies for use in my state's Muzzleloading deer season. I do wish they'd shut up about what they have not studied, though....

What irks a LOT of people in Living-History, are the folks who pontificate about their personal standards being what should be everybody's standards. They refuse to consider that the phrases "it only takes a little more time" and "it doesn't take that much more money" are relative terms, and they tend to be quite snobbish about it. I know several folks like this, and when they are a domestic pair, they have no kids (or the kids are grown), but the worse are the singles who have never had kids and they having nothing in their lives but Living History. YES if I was single with no kids, I'd have lots of disposable time and income.

What irks me are folks that get involved in a group, be it in-person or online, where the standards are well published, and then complain that the standards should be changed, and those changes are to suit them. I don't mean those that make a mistake, as all of us are human and humans make mistakes. Sometimes those are mistakes made by the rank-and-file, and sometimes there are mistakes made by "those in charge". I'm talkin' folks who join and immediately start doing different stuff, then think they may take offense when informed of the rules that were in place before they arrived, or stayed when the rules were changed after they joined. They sometimes as though this concept of a private group having some ideas that are the basis for why the group exists is somehow an affront.
Some shooting sports prohibit semi-automatic modern stuff...,
Some shooting events prohibit fixed cartridge firearms...
Some events prohibit caplocks...,
Some shooting events prohibit firearms altogether...,
Some event's prohibit certain tents, or clothing, or furniture...,
and the list goes on..., if a person doesn't like what's not allowed, then start something different, and move on, or stay and comply...,

LD

 

[CaptainKirk]

Nailed it.

 

[nightwolf1974]

To each their own...... With exception of a scope ML, I have MLs with everything else. The unmentionable MLs are ok in their right, even though I hunt with, shoot, and collect the traditionals. I keep an unmentionable BP pistol in my truck loaded and capped during ML season in the chance I may see a wounded deer come staggering out the woods while I'm going down the road. And I keep a unmentionable rifle at my hunting camp, so I always have a ML there too.

None of these things takes away from my love for traditional BP shooting or hunting. I mean next year I'm investing in a custom flintlock fowling piece.

 

[S.Kenton]

Just curious and to keep from hi jacking a different thread

How HC/PC are you comfortable with.

I have been known to leave my keys in the truck and use the door code in order to not have anything modern on my person at an event.

Are you ok with a plastic/delrin/fiberglass ramrod?
Ok with a plastic stock?
Ok with fiber optic sights?
Ok with a scope?
Ok with an in-line

Not for others just for yourself.

Maybe this should be a poll?

My rifles and Fowlers will be as H/P and P/C as possible. All my gear needs to be as close as possible too. That being said and I know it sounds weird, but I don’t care to dress up, I have the clothes and such even though I have the clothes and such.

 

[vibraphonusrex]

When I did reenacting, I belonged to a rather “hardcore” unit. I kept my keys, ID, modern money, etc., deep in my haversack, and it was fine with everyone. We used no tents, grills, camp chairs, nothing. I ate corn pone, hard tack, and three day old salt pork, while some unit next to us might order McDonald’s. Today, I’d probably be a “motel ranger.” But, that’s the way I liked it. That being said, I like the traditional side of things, but do use a delrin range rod so I don’t somehow break the nice wood one. For my modern side, I enjoy my AR-15 and AK, with optics and all. Best of both worlds, I guess.

 

[doubleset]

Best of both worlds, I guess.

Definitely the way to go. That's why we're all into whatever we're into.

 

[Mad L]

I don't own any of what you list, however I have a brass ramrod but would not take into a rendezvous as that is not why I would go.

 

[Jake2454]

I suppose, when you really get picky, there'd be "historically correct" folks going barefoot, drinking out of creeks, wearing several layers of clothes with holes arranged so the good cloth covers the holes in another layer. No refrigeration away from ice houses - either meat got salted/smoked , eaten quickly in warm weather, or they didn't mind a few maggots. Travelling? - drink outa creeks. Some H/C food was good, some I wouldn't put in my hand.

False teeth? - nope, just rotten ones or holes. Deerskins got brain tanned and squaw-chewed. Laces should be made from groundhog leather. Beeswax candles, coal oil, whale oil, etc. People didn't bathe much in winter, so to be historically correct - you should have b.o.

The stuff in the original post? I still have a couple of those, prefer to shoot originals or copies of originals but sure don't see a problem with folks enjoying themselves with them. Having fun is good.

also todays commercial powder......compressed and corned bp wasnt introduced until mid civil war.
having fun IS good

 

[French Colonial]

First of all, this was started referencing only where you drew the line on gun related modernization but I will admit that the thread creep to HC/PC and living history was participated in by yours truly as well.

And instead of a barefoot vagabond with holes in their cloths I would prefer to emulate a French gentleman in silk breeches (documented) silk hose (documented ) and shoes and shirts imported from France as many of my contemporaries in the Kaskaskia and Fort de Chartres also would be clothed.
I would spend my evenings in the pool hall (documented) or playing cards with my friends drinking the latest locally brewed ale (documented). Life in the mid 1700's was very good for the residents and people along the east cost as well if you had any holdings to speak of.

 

[Coinneach]

I find that all these averse comments about archery are pretty funny.

Let's see, we started shooting animals with a gun for food around 600 years ago, right?

And we started shooting animals with a bow for food around 100,000 years ago, right?

I'd say that archery clearly has pride of place here.

Then tell us all when the last quick hunting kill occurred in your living memory as an on the spot witness.
BTW, I dont mean a Rabbit or 3 day old Fawn at 15 yards.

 

[Coinneach]

Then stay away from any city.......

AMEN to that brother.

 

[Coinneach]

When I did reenacting, I belonged to a rather “hardcore” unit. I kept my keys, ID, modern money, etc., deep in my haversack, and it was fine with everyone. We used no tents, grills, camp chairs, nothing. I ate corn pone, hard tack, and three day old salt pork, while some unit next to us might order McDonald’s. Today, I’d probably be a “motel ranger.” But, that’s the way I liked it. That being said, I like the traditional side of things, but do use a delrin range rod so I don’t somehow break the nice wood one. For my modern side, I enjoy my AR-15 and AK, with optics and all. Best of both worlds, I guess.

Personally I think if we're going to insist on authenticity among "purists" there needs to be a segregation along perceived historical lines....eg
10% of reenactors should be afflicted with a serious STD.
42.5% should be Scurvy sufferers.
5% to 7% should be gibbering salivating inbred idiots resulting from incestuous relationships.........Beserkers if you will.
Between 4 to 6 % should be Alcoholic Grog shop /Inn habitees
2 to 2.3 % should be confirmed independent Longhunters or Mountain men / Hivernants who were as free and unencumbered as we humble dreamers can only imagine; and strive to sample in our brief yet valued sojourns.
As for the rest of them, well I dont really give a damn.

Those of us who take the Muzzle loading Black powder path do so for the small but essential sanity it allows us, its our too brief escape back into a long gone era where Men were measured by their survival skills and relative prosperity in what was a brutal era.

 

[doubleset]

Personally I think if we're going to insist on authenticity among "purists" there needs to be a segregation along perceived historical lines....

Well, certainly if your goal is to achieve the various experiences and feelings of the mountain men and longhunters, this is the direction you have to go in order to avoid "cherry picking" aspects of their lives that seem attractive. And you didn't even mention parasitic infections and rotten teeth. Not that there's anything wrong in trying to emulate an idealized image or focus on a number of particular heroic cases, but we shouldn't forget that it's an idealized image and that those were heroic cases.