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Whey too much powder!!!

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Reading these forums why do many people use Too much powder??

50g of Swiss 2 in .750 EIC Bess is plenty. 100+ is Military load. You're not shooting Horses just a Paper target at 50 yds.
No2 in pan as well.
 
My Bess requires a fairly stout load to hit accurately. If 50 grains would suffice, I would use it.
Maybe I'll try it just for kicks next time I shoot her, but I surmise that accuracy will be poor, and the shots will hit very low.
 
petethebrit said:
You're not shooting Horses just a Paper target at 50 yds.

If that was true for everyone here, the discussion would be over.

But I'm betting more folks here are less about paper poking at fixed ranges and more about pushing past 50 yards to poke holes clean through critters.

Bring your 50 grain load away from the range, then stretch past 50 yards and let hair be your target, and you'll be reassessing what's "right" for you.

No2 in pan as well.

Try No. 1 in your bore and pan instead, and I bet you'll have food for thought there, too.
 
Like BB and trent said, one person's "too much" powder is another person's "won't work for what I want to do."

Yeah, I wish I could shoot 20gr FFFg in everything I own but it just ain't practical except for the squirrel rifle.

Need at least 70gr to get the .58 and one of my .54's to group. The other .54 needs 85.

100 yard paper, ringing steel on a trail walk at unknown ranges, killing bear, etc. all call for a little more oomph than 50gr will produce.
 
I use to use way too much powder, IMHO, in some of my guns. Back then a .50 got 100 grains of 3F, the .45 got 80 grains of 3F and my .54 got 110 grains of 3F. While those loads were spectacularly accurate and powerful (over 2100fps in the .50), I found I could get equal accuracy and sufficient power with 60 - 65 grains in the .45, 70 grains in the .50 and .54. While the larger the ball the less velocity is required, the load must be accurate and effective at past 50 yards. Velocities now range from 1700+ fps in the .45 and in the .50 and around 1400 fps in the .54.
 
Bakeoven Bill said:
Need at least 70gr to get the .58 and one of my .54's to group. The other .54 needs 85.

There's that, too. My Bess won't group until I hit 80 grains of 1f, or perversely, 90 grains of 2f. My 58 caliber GRRW Hawken groups it's absolute best at 140 grains of 2f, but not far behind at 120 grains, which is what I shoot. My 62 caliber is the same, even if it weighs a whole lot less and beats the snot out of me.

Come to think of it, the only rifle I own among a couple of dozen is a 50 caliber fast twist with shallow rifling. I can get it to shoot round balls well with more powder using tighter patch/ball combos, but with a combo that's easier loading it's at its best at 50 grains. Actually that's 3f, come to think of it.

No need for human "rules" to get in the way of a gun's own rules.
 
Never thought about mixing whey in with powder or using it as a patch lubricant.... :wink: :grin:

Just kidding......

Back when I shot my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine in competition, I would have LOVED to have used only 50 grains of powder, but I did not get a truly accurate load until 70 grains. Since that is what the Bess liked, that's what she got.

Gus
 
I once watched a bud shoot 250 gr. of FFg, with a patched RB, in a .50 cal. Green River Leman half stock rifle. His butt cleared the stool he was sitting on, by a couple of inches, blood trickled from his shoulder, and he hurt for a week. For about as long a time as I laughed. Green River sure did make strong guns.
 
Wick Ellerbe said:
Green River sure did make strong guns.

Oh yeah. Good steel and lots of it, from what I can see. My beloved 58 caliber Hawken has a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" at the breech to 1" at the muzzle. All that weight (12.5# total) and the Hawken stock style really tames recoil that follows large charges. Don't think I'd contemplate 250 grains of powder in spite of it. I'm seeing Enuffland real clearly at 140.
 
Wick Ellerbe said:
I once watched a bud shoot 250 gr. of FFg, with a patched RB, in a .50 cal. Green River Leman half stock rifle. His butt cleared the stool he was sitting on, by a couple of inches, blood trickled from his shoulder, and he hurt for a week. For about as long a time as I laughed. Green River sure did make strong guns.

Thats funny I don't care who you are !

I once shot a maxi ball in one of those old plastic speed loaders with the remainder of the loader full of powder behind the maxi ball. :youcrazy: This was out of a .50 cal Investarms rifle. :shake: And yes it did re-cock the hammer! :shocked2: :shake:
 
Some folks wonder what it was like to shoot the military round from back-in-the-day, so that's what they try.
:idunno:

Me, I like from 2½ to 3 drams so that's between 70 and 80 grains. That's about ½ of the military loads recommended at the time of the AWI. Going past 50 yards with a Bess for hunting I think is really pushing the piece. Of course that depends on the results one gets with their particular musket.

LD
 
For those interested, here is some information on historic and a modern load for a King’s Pattern Brown Bess and a modern Brown Bess Reproduction.

Historic Powder Charges from Dr. De Witt Bailey’s published works and other original documentation.
Note: The pan was primed from the cartridge, so not all the powder went down the bore.

1. Seven Years War (French and Indian War in North America) Powder Charge of 165 grains of “Musket” Powder, which was probably 1Fg.

2. American Revolutionary War. Generally increased to 190 grains and in some cases up to 220 grains. Note: There was a huge scandal about the powder supplied to British Forces from England during this War. This scandal had to do with both the quantity of powder in the kegs, as many were found with sand or a combination of sand and stones in the powder, and also poor quality powder in many other cases.

3. By the first quarter of the 19th century, there had been significant increases in the quality of black powder, so the charge was reduced to 135 grains of Musket Powder.

The weight of the bullets used in the Brown Bess during the 18th century was also important. Though the caliber always given was supposed to be .69 Caliber, unfired balls that were excavated from British Sites in different places in North America actually show the more common sizes of the balls were .70 and .71 Caliber rather than .69 Caliber, according to the findings published by T.M. Hamilton in the book “Colonial Frontier Guns.”

Grain weight of Ball Sizes used in the Brown Bess during the 18th century.
A weight of 495 grains for a round ball made of Pure Lead with a diameter of .69".

A weight of 517 grains for a round ball made of Pure Lead with a diameter of .70".

A weight of 539 grains for a round ball made of Pure Lead with a diameter of .71".

But powder charges and weight of the different ball sizes were not the entire story. The balls were wrapped in linen cartridge paper, so there probably was some small gas leakage from that. During the 18th century, actual Musket Bore Sizes generally ran .76 caliber to .78 caliber and a small percentage as high as .80 caliber. What makes that important was the larger the bore diameter, the more gas leakage and thus less pressure in the bore.

Modern Brown Bess Replica Bore sizes run smaller than the Original Bore Sizes, often right around .75 caliber and in some cases some bores have been reported as small as .729.

For example, the Bore Size in my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine was either .751” or .753.” (My apology, but the last time I competed with that Musket was in 1979 and I sold that gun in the early 2000’s, so my memory is a bit fuzzy as to which was the actual size.) I used a .735” ball weighing approximately 598 grains with a greased, heavy pillow ticking patch that was so tight in the bore, I had to use a large short starter. (This larger diameter/heavier ball and tighter patch combination would have not allowed as much gas leakage as the linen cartridge paper wrapped smaller diameter balls in the historic period.) My target/accuracy load was 70 grains of 2 Fg and the 2 Fg probably gave higher pressures than the older 1Fg used in the early 19th century.

Of course, no one can accurately test the pressure in the bore of the original 18th and early 19th century loads, because of the differences in original ball and bore sizes and of course the powder and cartridge paper are not the same. I also was never able to test the pressure in the bore with my load in my modern Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine. However, I suspect that with the tighter ball and patch, smaller bore size and finer grained powder; my modern load may have come closer to the pressure in original Military Muskets and loads than one may suspect ”“ though maybe not quite as high of pressure as the original loads. I do know that ball/patch combination with the 70 grain charge of 2Fg was more accurate than a larger charge of powder.

Gus
 
Since "whey" was mentioned, I think we should discuss making cheese in lieu of the OP....not being critical of anyone's spelling, just trying to change the subject because I shoot what I shoot.....Fred
 
They were just starting to understand balistic at this time. No one thought trans-sonic resistance was so high. People knew that more powder equaled more velocity at the muzzle. No one gussed that that wouldn't pay off down range. No one guessed at diminishing returns.
People loaded for bear. Then the fact that government fraud was wide spread, that under fire a man on the line might spill half the powder in the pan and another part all around the muzzle before loading might make a cartridge maker make a over loaded cartridge.
 
I've got a can of Austin Musket Powder, pretty old. It's finer than FF but not as fine as FFF. At least that's the way it looks. Also, it may not have graphite in it; it's not as black as the Goex FF.
 
While shooting targets on a trailwalk I've seen guys load less powder for close targets. But I'm too senile to be changing stuff around.

I use the exact same load for rendezvous as for hunting. I can remember where my ball hits at 5 yards out to 100 yds. There's only one mark on my ramrod.

It would be confusing for me to vary powder charges so I keep it simple. GW
 
I have a nice 50cal w/GM barrel, at 85gr, she is very accurate, and great velocity....I have shot it up to 120gr...but recoil!

marc n tomtom
 
Yes 50 g in an original that is shootable would be good , but we are using 100 grains in modern made and proofed guns to get them to shoot flat over various ranges out to 100+ yards on steel gongs of various sizes , hope this helps ,NB. be carful using small loads as you will end up with a ring of powder behind the ball instead of a charge .
 

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