Which website

[gunner2292]

Which company (track of the wolf, jim chambers,etc...) has the easiest of the "kits" to build? I understand that all of them are just a collection of parts. I thought TOTW would be easiest just because its inletted for the barrell, and lock. I would be a first time builder so any help would be appreciated. The kit I would like to build is still in debate, but its between a NW Trade Rifle or a Southern poorboy type rifle. Is it worth the extra money to get it in the white?

 

[srottman]

check out sitting fox they can do a southern poor boys at a reasonable price

 

[gunner2292]

Are sitting fox muzzleloaders made of quality parts? They seem to be cheaper than TOTW or others. I am looking for a rifle that would have been used during the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade.

 

[J.D.]

Chambers kits are reported to be the best, bar none. I haven't' built a kit in 20 or so years, so I'm not sure if Chambers cuts dovetails for sights and underlugs on their barrels, but I think they do. I don't believe Track does that as a part of their parts kits.

I believe that Chambers kits are pre inlet for barrel and lock more accurately than other suppliers.

From all reports from very knowledgeable builders, Chambers parts kits are the highest quality available.

They may be a little more expensive, but in this case, you do get what you pay for.

I suggest buying or renting "Building the Chambers Kit rifle" DVD, so's you will know what you are in for.

I think Smartflix carries it.

As far as rifles used in the Rocky Mtn fur trade, PA styles of rifles were common. Dickert, Derringer, Henry, Leman and others made huge numbers of PA rifles for the fur trade.

 

[RJR]

Almost everything from the late 1700s thru the 1840s would have been used during the Ricky Mountain Fur Trade. Specific time period would determine what type would be better. Also would it be a company trapper or free trapper, possibly plainsman. What is the persona or is that still open. How PC do you want to go? Ray at Sitting Fox can put together pretty much what ever you want, just give him a call.

Rick

 

[gunner2292]

Well, I suppose it would be more of a free trapper type. I want a 45 caliber rifle probably. I understand that many used the North West trade rifle? Jim Bridger is a big hero of mine and would like to build a rifle he would have carried. Later in his life he is known to have carried a hawken if i am correct?

 

[Zonie]

Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth:

When I hear the term "free trapper" I think of the Rockies. Of course, there were "free trappers" dealing with the Indians and on their own going back to the time that no white man (except a few Frenchmen) had seen the States of Ohio and Kentucky and some of them may well have used a rifle as small as a .45 caliber.

A free trapper of the Rockies might have been found about any time after Lewis & Clarks journey but the first large parties were Company trapping outfits sometime around 1815 or so.
A early free trapper would have most likely been carrying a full stock flinter, most likely larger than a .45 cal.
Once most of the folks going into the Rockies saw the size of the buffalo and elk they realized their small east coast guns like a .45 would seriously under-gun them so they either bought larger caliber guns or had their guns rebarreled with .50 caliber barrels or larger.

The North West trade guns were very popular with the Indians but my reading indicates that few trappers carried them. Of course, the larger trapping parties often had hunter/cooks that went with them and these guys may have used a trade gun to take advantage of its smooth bore hunting advantages (birds and small game).

Most of the Hawkens folks think of when it comes to Jim Bridger are large caliber half stocks, usually with a bore above .50 caliber.
As your asking about building a rifle, I'll just add that a good representation of a Hawken is very difficult to build correctly. I would not recommend it for a first time builder.

 

[srottman]

Ray Franks at sitting fox gets his stocks from Pecatonica River I got a poor boy in the white with a siler lock and was well pleased with the stock and inletting.

 

[gunner2292]

Hey thanks a ton for the replies. So i suppose many of the members of the fur trade companies used a pennsylvania long rifle type in large caliber than? I am looking at sitting fox and was looking for an accurate representation of that type of rifle. The way i have heard it sounds like many trappers used a simple poorboy type rifle without any fancy inlaying.
Also would the leman trade rifle have been used by fur trappers?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

They could have used Lemans or Dimicks or English style trade rifles. The eastern long rifles were a bit fragile and small in the bore for the mountains. Don Stith has a nice Dimick parts set that would be a fine choice.

 

[Zonie]

Henry Leman worked for the Geo. Tryon & Co for a while and then established his own company in 1834.

His first contract with the U.S. Government for Indian rifles was dated November 7, 1837.
While this is close to the end of the Fur Trapping era I would think that one of these guns in either full stock or half stock would be appropriate but to accurately represent the guns that Leman made for the indians or trappers it should be a .50 caliber or larger gun.

Leman made both Percussion and Flintlock rifles.
I am not sure which you prefer but I'll say that for a first time builder the Flintlock is easier to put together.

 

[gunner2292]

I was definatley going to make it flintlock. I was just looking around for a rifle that was commonly carried by trappers. I really enjoy history but could not seem to find much showing a common rifle. There is allot of false info out there and its hard to distinguish wether some of it is historically accurate or not.

 

[maypo59]

While I don't know "exactly" how correct it is, since you point out specifically to Jim Bridger, in their current catalog, Track of the Wolf shows a kit based on "his rifle".. just a thought. and it says they will mount the breech etc, for of course some more $$, if it's not something you want to tackle yourself. I do agree that for a 1st rifle, it's an AWFUll large bite to take. I started with a traditions hawken, then a GPR, next will be a build from TOW.. probably the Kit Carson style.. I want to build a non-plains rifle, really I do.. perhaps the 4th will be the southern mountain or Tenn. flinter squirrel rifle that made me think i wanted to try BP in the first place.. :wink:

 

[gunner2292]

Yes i do understand it is a large bite. I have been wanting to do this for some time and I really want to build something or even get it in the white so i can have a PC rifle. Thats the problem with most production guns is that there not as PC for the rocky mountain trade era as id like.

 

[rich pierce]

Too bad we've been saddled with guns and poor copies of guns that were always relatively rare in the fur trade (Hawkens), and nobody has provided kits for guns that were common for the fur trade (1810-1840 era). The common trade rifles of the period (I am not including Lehmans which had highest production in the 1840's thru 1860's)included the Wheeler rifles, the English pattern, the Scroll Guard English and the Lancaster pattern. Firearms of the Fur Trade by Hanson is a good inexpensive resource. All the guns I mentioned were available in flintlock, were fullstock rifles, had heavy long octagonal barrels 42-44" in length, and ranged from .50-.54 caliber.

 

[LaBonte]

Two of the most common rifles of the Rocky Mtn fur trade era were brass mounted late era Lancaster rifles built by makers such as Dickert (pre-1830) and Henry (his rifles were first sold to the western trade in 1826), who were just two of the main suppliers to the fur trade companies.
One of the other widely used rifles was the iron mounted Southern Mtn Rifles.
Both are available in kit form from Muzzle Loading Builders supply as well as other dealers.
For the time period swamped barrels would have been the most common, although tapered and straight barrels started being used more by around 1830. English style locks such as the L & R Late English or the Chambers Late Ketland which is one of the best locks on the market for this period and type of rifles, were teh most common.
Another option is a Leman kit, in essence a late Lancaster style, just don't use the typical Leman "capbox" replace it with a late Dickert or Henry style patchbox and proper flint lock and call it a Lancaster.
For a plain jane rifle, go with a So Mtn Rifle - for one of the best examples see Dennis Galzener's Gillespie Rifles page http://home.att.net/~t.glazener/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Calibers: while 50 and 54 were widely used in the West 45's were not unknown; in fact the Henry New English Model, first offered in 1834 was of that caliber to begin with and several western fur trade purchase orders from that time list it as a caliber.

IMO either style rifle with a 42" 50 calber B weight swamped barrel (available from several makers and a very common length for the period), a plain maple stock, single or double triggers - your choice - just match to the correct size trigger guard, with the proper lock (see my above suggestions, the Germanic style locks are not "correct" for this period) and furniture to match - brass for the late Lancaster and iron for the So Mtn - will best fit what you are looking for. Much depends on what time period you are looking at - the western fur trade should really be broken up into at least three periods when it comes to equipment, with some over lap of course.
FWIW there is an outfit making Henry rifles - English models as well as Lancasters - but they are not available in kit form at this time. Also Dimick didn't arrive in St Louis until 1849, past the classic Rocky Mtn fur trade era.
But you might check with Don Stith, www.donstith.com , he was working on a proper Henry Lancaster style kit - don't know where he stands at this time.

 

[gunner2292]

Also what is the most common flint size for a flintlock rifle? I know there are different size locks but what do most rifles take? is it a 3/4"?

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is no MOST COMMON size of flint. It depends on the lock. how wide the frizzen is, and the distance from the cock screw to the face of the frizzen at half cock, adjusted for the distance from the cock screw and hammer, to the bottom of the flash pan.

You don't want a flint so long it hits the bottom of the flash pan when the hammer comes to rest.

YOu don't want the flint to rest against the frizzen when the hammer is at half cock.

You don't want the frizzen to be more narrow than the width of the frizzen.

You also don't want the flint to be so wide that it might strike the barrel as it is falling forward.

Three are three basic sizes to locks, but there are also lots of exceptions. Small locks used for pistols and small rifles, use flints that may be 1/2-5/8" wide, and maybe 5/8 to 3/4" long. Rifle locks are usually 5/8-3/4- wide, and use either 3/4 to 7/8 inch long flints.

Then you have musket locks, which are much larger. They use Musket flints, that can be 1 1/4-1 1/2" long and wide. Most are more like 1 inch wide, and d1 1/8" wide. I have seen locks that are smaller than the small size I describe. I have seen rifle locks that were smaller than what I have described. Foreign made lock dimensions can be different than most American Made locks, but there are exceptions there also.

Most suppliers of flints know the flints that each make of lock and style uses. Remember, they are selling flints to people every day, and they do get to know this stuff. Just ask them. You can give yourself peace of mind by taking the three measurements I have set out above, so you know what will work in your lock. But, defer to the supplier's justment if its a difference of an 1/8" in any dimension. :hatsoff:

 

[gunner2292]

Alright thanks guys.