Which would you use in this situation.

[justahunter]

To start this thread I need to first say I have always been a round ball guy. I never shot conicals just because I never thought they bring much more to the killing table than their predecessors.

I have a .58 Investarms that shoots RB's great. But this year I decided come hell or high water I'm going to use my .54 T/C Reneken. It's a renegade with a hawken stamped barrel. Its always been my backup rifle but it deserves a chance to be a little more.

I will be chasing cow elk here in NW Co. this year.

I cannot! get this rifle to shoot a round ball to my standards to save my arse. I have tried all the tricks. I mean ALL the tricks.

So I tried some conicals and it looks like that's what's going to the elk woods with me this year.

After these groups, do I really ethically have any other choice?

Both groups started off with a clean barrel. Both groups are 80gr. of Goex 2f and RWS 1075 cap. The center group is RBs and the bottom left group is TOW molded maxi-balls lubed with bore butter. 60ish yards.

Come on September!

Todd

 

[rodwha]

I would certainly use a conical in your shoes. It doesn't seem you are given much choice.

 

[BrownBear]

Hard to base anything on just one group of each. I'd shoot about 20 groups of each before deciding.

 

[justahunter]

I have hundreds of groups with RBs and have shot several groups with conicals. Obviously im not going to post pictures of all but rest assured this is a good representation of what the rifle is capable of with three shot strings and no hoop jumping.

I can get tighter groups with roundballs but the hoops I have to jump through to do it are unrealistic in a hunting situation.

Todd

 

[lowcsp]

JUST MY 2-CENTS BUT LOOKING AT THE RIFLE i WOULD GUESS THAT THE RIFLING IN THE BARREL HAS TO FAST OF A TWIST FOR THE ROUND BALLS i WOULD STAY WITH WHAT WORKS

 

[Herb]

Hi, Todd. I am over in Vernal. I shoot .54s a lot and maybe your 80 grains of 2F is too light a load. Have you tried heavier loads, even up to 110 grains? What is the twist in that barrel?

 

[kkmemmott]

Most of the T/C Hawken barrels come with a 1:48 twist which often will favor the conical bullet. With a faster twist and a roundball, you may have to reduce the powder charge to get them to shoot. This is not always the case, but each rifle has its own mind and reducing the load is just an option to see if it will shoot better. I prefer a slower twist rate for roundballs in the 1:56 to 1:72 range. If the conical bullets shoot the best, then use them. Just remember to check your point of impact at 50, 75, and 100 yards because the conical will have a higher trajectory than the roundball. Good luck.

 

[justahunter]

This is a factory 1:48" Hawken barrel. I do have a T/C 1:66 round ball .54 barrel but its badly pitted (I bought it at a yard sale for $20) and will literally walk two feet in three shots. It shreds patches. Its is going to become a 20 gauge or .58 caliber one of these days.

I guess I should say I have been shooting this rifle with round balls for at least a dozen years. A 6" group at 60 yards is plenty good to deer and elk hunt to those ranges but I have no confidence in the rifle at such mediocre accuracy.

It does start shooting well at under 50 grains of powder but I do not think that is enough juice to bust an elk proper.

If I start with a tight ball either by using .535 balls and .530 balls or double/thick patching and as the barrel fouls use either the .530 ball or thinner patches I can get it to group. If I start at 100 grains first shot, 90 the 2nd and use 80 the third that helps as well. A clean barrel every shot will help. All different lubes, all different patch material, different powders, caps, ball brands, holding my jaw different and chanting to the fire with feathers on my head, getting it to shoot under 3" at 50-60 yards with three shots with the same components at a minimum of 80 gr it will not do.

I finally committed the sin of shooting a bullet in it and I guess I'm super happy my long time rifle is now an accurate hunter. I just got a shipment of different bullets to see which is the best but honestly the maxi balls are just fine and will be hard to beat.

Herb, Thanks for the note. I have read several of your post while searching past post and I really enjoy them. I really liked the snowy Book Cliff hunt you shared a while back. (I hope I am remembering this correctly).

Thanks for the replies and happy hunting to all.

Todd

 

[jamesthomas]

Sure does look like you've tried it all :thumbsup: :surrender: sometimes those 1/48 twist just wont shoot a roundball, of course I think it all depends on the barrel cause somebody is bound to chime in an say they can get 2" groups all day with their 1/48" twist barrel.

 

[majg1234]

yep my grandson and I do it all the time in our TC hawkens :blah: :grin: 80gr ffg Goex,hand cast 490 ball and 018 ticking with felt wad over powder.My 58 investarms will do it too,same recipe except 120gr ffg.There is something missing but not sure what.That 54 will shoot just finding the magic combination may be elusive,since both groups are strung out vertically I'm thinking something is affecting velocity.Reading your post seems to favor a clean barrel????? how about a fouling shot and a gentle swab repeat for effect???? Have you tried that??? shooting over a chronograph if available might give some insight :idunno:

 

[jamesthomas]

Have tried the felt wad over the powder yet? like Majg1234 Maybe that's the ticket!.

 

[justahunter]

Three different sizes of felt wads, hornets nest, three different sizes of felt wads plus hornets nest, three different sizes of felt wads with and without the hornets nest with and without most different types of lubes etc etc.. Cotton, flannel, silk (of course after watching "Last of the Mohicans") and ticking every size ever made patching material combined with the three different sizes of felt wads with and without the hornets nest with and without the lubes on the felt wads etc etc.. Cleaned barrel, fouled barrel, swabbed barrel etc etc...

I am not trying to be rude as I really appreciate the advise but believe me when I say I have tried all the tricks. And like I have said earlier, I CAN get this rifle to shoot RB's but the trickery to do it is not feasible under hunting conditions. I want to be able to shoot the same load three times without cleaning my gun. I promise with everything I have this particular gun will not do it accurately three shots in a row with roundballs.

My 1:48" twist .58 cal Investarms has no problems achieving great accuracy with roundballs.

From the sounds of things there are many people like me who would rather mess with a rifle for a dozen years before they will lower themselves to shoot a bullet.

I guess this thread should be titled "I finally tried bullets in my rifle and have found new love with my old rifle."

Todd

 

[hanshi]

Nothing wrong with a conical if your gun likes it better than a prb. Both will kill elk quite nicely.

The myth that a 1-48" barrel is a "compromise" or that it won't shoot prb except with anything but squib loads is just that; a true myth. Rifles with 1-48" were common in the 18th & early 19th century. Every rifle I've owned with 1-48" twist gave excellent groups with prb. And I have a .54 with 1-66" twist that shoots maxi bullets well enough that I'd not worry a bit if I hunted deer with them. But it just so happens that I hunt with prb instead of conicals.

Each rifle is an individual and two that are identical in every way can easily like different projectiles. The thing that can cause a 1-48" barrel to scatter shots with prb is shallow rifling, not the twist rate. Often rifling that's too shallow will fail to grip the prb well enough to spin it out; the prb will strip the rifling. And it may be more than just the riflings shallow grooves. Shallow rifling grooves that for some reason have "dull" or worn edges is pretty sure to not like prb. This is where conicals are about the only choice. This is where the reports of "shot out barrels" originate. The shallow grooves wear and go dull from lots of shooting until prbs start to strip on the rifling.

 

[kkmemmott]

What powder charge were you using in your 1:48 twist barrel and what size of group could you achieve with that load if you don't mind my asking?

 

[justahunter]

A couple more finish up photos. After some more shooting at 60 yards to confirm I like the bullets, I shot a three shot string at 100 with the maxi-balls to sight in. Point of aim was the center bull, the 4th shot was my last Maxi I took to the range.

80 gr. Goex 2F, Track of the Wolf Maxi-Ball lubed with bore butter.

I took some Hornady Great Plains to see how they do and shot the first group I have ever shot with them at 100. I only took a few G.P. bullets to see how they compare to the Maxi-Ball.

I adjusted the sights after shot #1 and #2 since they were so close to the Maxi-Balls, Shot #3 was the last for the day and I couldn't be happier with how my .54 is doing with bullets.

I can't wait for elk season! I will probably use the Maxi's just cause I don't think hollow points and elk belong in the same sentence but I doubt the GP's will bounce off elk hide.

Thanks again,

Todd

 

[scotsman]

Hi Just-a-hunter. If you want to explore accuracy with conicals, google P.R. Bullets. This guy specializes in blackpowder bullets and his products are quite special. cheers

 

[stinkyfeet]

MY TC 54 cal stock barrel wouldn't shoot round balls worth a manure either maxi/buffalo bullets all day long round balls no way. I ended up building a target barrel from a mowery barrel blank 32 inches long with a 1-60 twist .010 deep rifling and walla the tight groups with a prb. When I do mountain man events its the gun I shoot.

 

[Big John]

I worked up a load for Moose hunting with my 50cal rb barrel two years ago, 80gr of 3f Goex, 54 cal felt wad ,t/c minie ball and settled on that. At 130yds 10 hits out of 10 all inside a eight inch target

 

[Billnpatti]

Ethically, you must use the most accurate load that will give you the needed killing power. Since both loads will provide the needed killing power, you are left with choosing the most accurate load. In your case, the conicals are the most accurate and would be the thing to take to the woods.

 

[roundball]

Ethically, you must use the most accurate load that will give you the needed killing power.

Different POV is if two loads deliver needed killing power, and they're both "accurate enough", then either can be used.