Whitworth rifle range report

[Widows Son]

I finally had a chance to get to the range with the PH Whitworth. I’ll relate what I did and how. As I said in an earlier post, I don’t have access to some of the ideal materials like Swiss powder or onion skin paper and I must make the best of what I actually have.

I weighed 20 hexagonal projectiles within 1grn, (558) and measured and then weighed 10 phials with 60gr of Wano fffg, and 10 with 65gr fffg.

1 patched 10 projectiles with baking paper and 10 with a grocery store receipt. The baking paper bullets measured 443-444 and the shopping docket 446-447.

I soaked a felt pad in my lubricant of choice and when it dried I punched them out with a thin cardboard wad underneath (hexagonal)

I was very deliberate to keep consistent with everything. 1 target at 50metres and 1 at 100metres. Essentially I could not get anything like a group. Most shots stayed in the black but that’s all. My eyes just aren’t what they were using the standard ladder and post sights.

So I started over at 25m to try to get a group. My point of aim was the bottom of the black circle. 5 shots all into the 9 and 10 ring with one 8. This was with 50gr fffg and the baking paper patching. My second 5 shots were with the shopping docket patching, my point of aim the top of the black ring. This group was not nearly as small.

The baking paper patching separated from the bullet a few feet in front of the muzzle. The shopping docket (a thermal-type of paper) separated further down range. The bullets patched with the baking paper at 443-444 were easier to load and produced a better group. (but at 25m a slingshot would group well).

I’m going back in the morning for another round of experiments. I’ll stay with the 50g charge and baking paper patching and go to 50metres.

I need to improve my fouling management because after a few shots I could feel a crusty buildup just above the felt wad, which would have affected the bullet seating.

Here is a couple of pictures. The bullet patched with baking paper on the left and the shopping docket on the right

 

[APG]

Seems like the baking paper wraps are the ones to use. Now you just have to figure out the rest of it. Keep posting pictures of your process, I'd be interested in watching what you end up with as your final load.

 

[Stykbow]

Looks like a good start!

 

[Kno-ie]

If I may ask. Did you notice any soot (blacking) on the paper you recovered.

 

[Widows Son]

If I may ask. Did you notice any soot (blacking) on the paper you recovered.

I couldn’t recover any due to the breeze! I intended to have a look. Tomorrow I will definitely try to recover some and photograph it. I would assume the cleaner the paper the better the wad-seal underneath ?

 

[SDSmlf]

Don’t have a Whitworth, but shoot paperpatched out of a faster twist GM barrel. Found baking parchment paper to be ok, but things really came around when I started using 100% cotton 9lb onion skin for wrapping sized bullets. They load with little more than pressure from the weight of the ramrod. Not much to recover as far a paperpatch. It tends to shred into confetti as it exits the bore. I use a slightly oversized hard felt wad between the powder and bullet.

 

[Widows Son]

I do intend to get ahold of a higher quality powder and the onion skin paper someday. All reports say that’s the way to go. For the time being I just have to maximise my existing equipment.

 

[SDSmlf]

I do intend to get ahold of a higher quality powder and the onion skin paper someday. All reports say that’s the way to go. For the time being I just have to maximise my existing equipment.

Agree completely. If it fits, you can try and shoot it. For paper I have heard others talk about pages from old books (100% cotton?) and drafting paper/vellum. The 100% cotton onion skin is hard to come by (not made anymore), but have seen that some were using the 25% cotton stuff. Have not tried it. I use an adjustable sizing die to get the diameter I want before wrapping and then resize to set the paper. Just sharing ideas. Have found muzzleloader barrels to be pretty much bottomless holes you can pour money into.

 

[Widows Son]

T

Agree completely. If it fits, you can try and shoot it. For paper I have heard others talk about pages from old books (100% cotton?) and drafting paper/vellum. The 100% cotton onion skin is hard to come by (not made anymore), but have seen that some were using the 25% cotton stuff. Have not tried it. I use an adjustable sizing die to get the diameter I want before wrapping and then resize to set the paper. Just sharing ideas. Have found muzzleloader barrels to be pretty much bottomless holes you can pour money into.

Thank you for your supportive words. I’m actually using cast hex bullets from a KAL mould and I have no way to size them. They are very consistent diameter thankfully

 

[fleener]

At least you are out trying.

I have never owned a whitworth or shot one. I have shot some long range M however. I tried the baking paper several years ago, could not get a decent group with it either.

Perhaps I missed it, where are you from?

I use 100% Cotton air mail paper and it does work much better. Might try a combo of wads, fiber and wool.

For what it is worth, I dont lube my PP bullets. Shoot them dry. Only lube is on the wool felt wad.

Fleener

 

[Widows Son]

Hello again. Thank you for your kind attention. I will need some advice because my second range report is rather inconclusive.

Based on my success yesterday at 25 metres amd 50gr of fffg I began today at 50 metres with the same point of aim (the bottom of the front sight post just under the black number 7 of the target.)
My 5 shot string scored in order 7/9/10/8/10

I shot a second string of 5 and scored in order 10/8/8/7/9

Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic but I thought I’d get a better group than this. This is all from a comfy bench rest.
I recovered some paper patching but don’t quite understand how to interpret it.

It will be at least another week before I can get back to try again. I would like to ask an embarrassing question that may be affecting my paper patching. Judging from the photos, what direction does the rifling twist? And does it actually matter?

Thank you all for your consideration and assistance.

 

[Widows Son]

At least you are out trying.

I have never owned a whitworth or shot one. I have shot some long range M however. I tried the baking paper several years ago, could not get a decent group with it either.

Perhaps I missed it, where are you from?

I use 100% Cotton air mail paper and it does work much better. Might try a combo of wads, fiber and wool.

For what it is worth, I dont lube my PP bullets. Shoot them dry. Only lube is on the wool felt wad.

Fleener

Hi fleener
Im from Queensland Australia but I came from Nezperce Idaho a long time ago.
I’ll keep a lookout for that airmail paper. I did put a little lube on the paper just as I loaded the bullet. Just thought it would help slide down and keep fouling softer. It didn’t occur to me not to do it.

 

[TFoley]

a. It's right hand twist, like most rifled barrels - left-hand is not unknown, but it's rare and can be found in some handguns. In engineering, unless specifically designed, most threads and directions of rotation are clockwise - right-hand. It's easier to do - all cutting tools that rely on the workpiece rotating against a tool, like a lathe or a mill, rotate clockwise.

b. Your Whitworth is shooting like c*** because you should be using a starting load of around 70gr - fifty is just not enough to send that big LONG and heavy bullet rotating sufficiently - TBH, I'm amazed it shot so well. The usual load for a Whitworth rifle is between 80 - 90gr, BTW. David Minshall, a man of vast experience in these matters, would tell you that long-range shooting is accomplished with a Whitworth uses around 100gr. These rifles are decidedly NOT made for casual plinking at short ranges.

c. As friend Fleener notes above, paper-patching does not require that the bullet be lubed. Note that he is VERY modest about his accomplishments, and is worth listening to any day of the week. However, he is nowhere near as modest as me, but then I have much to be modest about.

BTW, he wondered where you are located - I'm making a guess that you are in the USA or Canada - the pp on one of the bullets shows a dollar price tag.

 

[Ironoxide]

(...)
Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic but I thought I’d get a better group than this. This is all from a comfy bench rest.
(...)

How is your shooting with other black powder rifles?

If you're a beginner this is not such a bad result. Please mind that in my opinion someone who has been shooting for 10 years, but goes to the range twice a year is still a beginner. Don't flame me for having an opinion

I'll describe some of my early experiences in hope it'll encourage others. My first muzzleloader was a cap lock Pedersoli Hawken. 50 cal, fast twist (1:24) barrel. I was getting similar accuracy to your report with the correct heavy conical bullet, but after a lot of shooting and load development I settled on 75 grains of 3f, a short (unlubricated) felt over powder wad and a two band Lee REAL bullet. That combo resulted in 2in groups at 50m (supported sitting position). Back at the time I was very happy with that.

Fast forward few years. I was getting pretty good results with my prb squirrel caliber rifle (cloverleaf "groups" at 50m supported, 3~5in o/h).

I bought an "unmentionable" black powder rifle (Sharps 1874 sporting in 45-90). I bought few books written by reputable authors etc. I made my loads very carefully and I was getting horrible results. So I put it away for a while and I continued to shoot patched ball rifles. I'm getting pretty good results with bigger calibers (my personal best a sub 1moa 5 shot group at 100yds - perhaps a freak accident rather than my ability ).

Then I try some of the old loads in the unmentionable and suddenly it groups 2.5in at 100m with what is a "wrong" bullet.

Hmm, what is the conclusion of this very verbose story? It wasn't the rifle, it wasn't the load, it was me.

I simply shot more frequently using rifles and projectiles that were easier to manage. This was a lot more pleasant experience so I kept at it until I got better. Then I got good results with more "difficult" rifles.

Before I realised that I kept hearing about those people who pick up their first black powder heavy conical shooting rifle and get cloverleaf at 100m on first range session. Moving to 300m for the next.

What they don't tell you is that they may have been a competitive high power rifle shooter in their earlier life or have extensive experience with heavy recoiling hunting guns etc.

If you don't have someone experienced in coaching black powder shooter's locally pick your best load so far, and shoot more. Or even better if you don't get good results and you're starting to get discouraged put the rifle in the safe and pick another one (if you have it). Than shoot more that one and come back to the previous rifle after some time.

If you just have one bp rifle or you're set on getting better with it no matter what vary your technique. I don't mean to shoot off hand if your bench shooting is bad. I mean to replace the comfy rest with a heavy metal ammo can full of sand or some heavy wooden contraption. Try a wearable recoil pad. If your using one try without.

Also for some people it works well to be conscious what forces their hands apply to the rifle while shooting. I'm one of those people. I'm getting best results if my trigger hand does 100% of pulling the rifle into my shoulder. The left hand only steadies the rifle and controls recoil. I was told for other people even thinking about such minutia is enough to loose consistency. They have to reach their best grip unconsciously.

Hopefully above helps. Don't get discouraged. Shoot other rifles. Also, listen to other shooter's of the same rifle model regarding loads

 

[Widows Son]

Hmm, what is the conclusion of this very verbose story? It wasn't the rifle, it wasn't the load, it was me.

I simply shot more frequently using rifles and projectiles that were easier to manage. This was a lot more pleasant experience so I kept at it until I got better. Then I got good results with more "difficult" rifles.

Before I realised that I kept hearing about those people who pick up their first black powder heavy conical shooting rifle and get cloverleaf at 100m on first range session. Moving to 300m for the next.

Wise words. I do suspect myself as being the culprit.
I shot traditional patched round ball muzzleloaders avidly from the age 12 years old until I was 30. And I was good at it. Then I put it down for 20 years.
Now in my 50’s I’ve taken it up again. My youthful ‘sniper eyes’ are gone. I regularly shoot a .45 Pedersoli Plainsman and usually place 2nd or 3rd at my club’s monthly primitive rendezvous shoot. So I consider myself modestly competent.
But yes, this Whitworth is my first heavy conical Victorian-era target rifle. I don’t deny this is a new discipline of muzzleloading for me.

 

[Widows Son]

M

As friend Fleener notes above, paper-patching does not require that the bullet be lubed. Note that he is VERY modest about his accomplishments, and is worth listening to any day of the week. However, he is nowhere near as modest as me, but then I have much to be modest about.

BTW, he wondered where you are located - I'm making a guess that you are in the USA or Canada - the pp on one of the bullets shows a dollar price tag.

Modesty is a noble virtue.
I’m in Australia. We exchanged the Australian pound for the Australian dollar back in the 1960s.

So, does the direction that a paper patch is rolled really matter? I ask because in a muzzleloader the patched bullet is maneouvered against the rifling twist when loading and then with the twist when fired.

 

[Widows Son]

you should be using a starting load of around 70gr - fifty is just not enough to send that big LONG and heavy bullet rotating sufficiently

70gr of what size? I am using 3f powder because it’s what I have. I found a chart on some old cast boolets forum that stated 25% less fffg produces close to 2f ffg velocities and breech pressure.


GOEX FFg to FFFg at the 56% proposed rule of thought
50 gr FFg = 28 gr FFFg
60 gr FFg = 34 gr FFFg
70 gr FFg = 39 gr FFFg
80 gr FFg = 45 gr FFFg
90 gr FFg = 50 gr FFFg
100 gr FFg = 56 gr FFFg
110 gr FFg = 62 gr FFFg
125 gr FFg = 70 gr FFFg
GOEX FFg to FFFg at the 75% proposed rule of thought
50 gr FFg = 38 gr FFFg
60 gr FFg = 45 gr FFFg
70 gr FFg = 53 gr FFFg
80 gr FFg = 60 gr FFFg
90 gr FFg = 68 gr FFFg
100 gr FFg = 75 gr FFFg
110 gr FFg = 83 gr FFFg
125 gr FFg = 94 gr FFFg
GOEX FFFg to FFg
30 gr FFFg = 54 gr FFg (at 56%), 40 gr FFg (at 75%)
40 gr FFFg = 71 gr FFg (56%), 53 gr FFg (75%)
50 gr FFFg = 89 gr FFg (56%), 67 gr FFg (75%)
60 gr FFFg = 107 gr FFg (56%), 80 gr FFg (75%)
70 gr FFFg = 125 gr FFg (56%), 93 gr FFg (75%)
80 gr FFFg = 143 gr FFg (56%), 107 gr FFg (75%)
90 gr FFFg = 161 gr FFg (56%), 120 gr FFg (75%)
100 gr FFFg = 179 gr FFg (56%), 133 gr FFg (75%)
110 gr FFFg = 196 gr FFg (56%), 147 gr FFg (75%)

 

[Britsmoothy]

I dint have any experience with these rifles but what I have picked up on over the years is that charge weights should be around the 100gns.
Where as the minie was handicapped with skirts getting blown out at the muzzle these rifles are not. I understand the sliding fit of the bullet needs to be a soft lead so obtoration from the heavy charge occurs.
Again, I have no experience with these rifles but....if you are getting a crusty area your lube is not up to scratch or not enough.
I'm sure you will get there with this iconic rifle.

 

[fleener]

Brent might see this thread and offer his opinion on PP. I learned what I know from him. Your paper is not sheading and coming out like confetti.

Your groups should be much better. How many times does your paper wrap around the bullet? When you load is the bullet able to just about slip down the bore with the weight of the loading rod?

AU has some very good long range shooters. Mark S. is a good friend and Capt. of the AU long range team. Cant remember the name of the town he is near, but it is South of Sidney a couple of hours if I remember right. He is an outstanding shooter. Let me know if you want his email address.

There are lots of things that can help or that you should try. I think powder charge is one. Different paper and play with a combination of wads. Bullet size in relationship to the bore might be an issue as well.

I do a damp patch then a dry patch between every bullet. I have changed my loading procedure where I load the powder in a dirty bore, then I push the wads down, then I use a damp patch (water only) followed by a dry patch. Bullet goes on top after the cleaning. This method keeps all the crap out of the flash channel.

I leave for remote area of Canada for fishing tomorrow and wont be checking this forum.

Fleener

 

[cal.43]

Imho your powder charge is to less, for 100m with a 500gn bullet with my Brockway I use 80gn Swiss No.2,

shoot prone with a sling and the gun is much better than me