Why does smokeless powder peel open a muzzleloader like a banana?

[Phil Coffins]

Hatchet Jack , the "14" is 14% carbon, good info but that should read .14%

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Hatchet Jack , the "14" is 14% carbon, good info but that should read .14%

12L14. The "12" is the type "Carbon Steel - Resulpherized", the "L" means lead has been added, the "14" is 14% carbon

Oh the decimal! Gotcha

 

[Tenmile]

I really appreciate the sharing of information by very knowledgeable folk here. I wish every new (and old) muzzleloader would read this. I’ve never even thought about putting smokeless in a muzzleloader, but I’ve learned valuable information from this thread. One accident like the one pictured takes the fun out of it.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

I crossed paths with a video on this forum, can’t remember where, that demonstrated what happens with smokeless powder. Scary! It blew up every ML it was loaded in! I thought it was a bit of an over charge at 150 grains, but with BP I think the barrels would have survived? Is the issue the metal ML’s are made of? Barrel Wall thickness? How can a cheap black gun pop off smokeless forever and an expensive BP barrel becomes a cautionary tale? I don’t want to shoot the stuff, just curious.

smol;ess burns progressively while black does not, generating far more pressure

 

[LME]

And some BP target rifles, like those shot by Fleener, David Minshall, me and a few others - Idaho Louis for instance - shoot comparatively small-bore bullets [yes, that's what they were originally called] of around .45cal, but with charges around 90gr or more. But remember that we are also shooting out to 1200 yards.

By large diameters I meant out side measurement. The ones I saw were about two inches across. I don't know what caliber they were.

 

[J.Campbell63]

This is off the subject kinda:
This is the legendary “ pop & no kick”.
I was there . My friend reloads his own. 3 stage press. I won’t say which press because it not the press’s fault.
He used to laugh at me using Lee loaders & Lee hand press. Used to tell me I was “Anal”.
He don’t say crap now .
He’s fine. Wasn’t hurt at all unless you count his pride because about 20 people witnessed it and said the same thing.
But as a black powder shooter and modern reloaded I’ve not crossed that line yet.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Two main reasons .One is that smokeless powders build a lot more psi than black powder. Smokeless detonates while black powder burns.Two, when people use smokeless they way over charge the gun. For example my twelve gauge ml uses 75 grain FF, while I reload my modern 12 gauge with 18 grain red dot.!

 

[TFoley]

By large diameters I meant out side measurement. The ones I saw were about two inches across. I don't know what caliber they were.

I realise, klutz that I am, that you DID mean outside diameter, and not inside. Please ignore me, right now I'm really missing my daily bar of chocolate.

 

[Spillikins]

The reason one never shoots smokeless in BP guns is 2 fold.
1. Burn rate...

Truly excellent post. Thank you.

 

[TFoley]

Two main reasons .One is that smokeless powders build a lot more psi than black powder. Smokeless detonates while black powder burns.Two, when people use smokeless they way over charge the gun. For example my twelve gauge ml uses 75 grain FF, while I reload my modern 12 gauge with 18 grain red dot.!

Sorry, smokeless does not detonate, in congflagrates. Burns VERY fast, that is, far faster than any grade of BP, but burns, nevertheless. Hence the complex design of smokeless powders - ball, flake and extruded rod with very odd shapes, like pasta in a very small scale. Some has serrated exterior to offer the maximum surface area to the advancing flame front, and even has holes through the middle...

Explosives detonate.

Low explosive, like black powder, 'lifts'. which is why it was mainly used in bulk for quarrying and mining in soft soil. High explosive shatters - in hard stone - the detonation wave from HE can be as fast as 10,000 metres a second.

As demonstrated n a course I attended - the instructor got us to jump a ten-foot piece of standard cannon fuze to put it out. Quite easy.

He then offered us the chance to try the same thing out on a similar length of det-cord. Oddly enough, there were no takers.

Just as well - it blew a one foot deep ditch in the earth in about a half a millisecond.

That's why saboteurs use BP to blow away embankments and HE to cut track.

 

[Lynnhawk]

There are several factors in play. The first one is black powder is measured by volume whereas smokeless is measured by weight. There is a huge difference between the two.

People that do not know better will measure smokeless propellant by volume and wind up with way too much propellant to charge the gun with. Thus blowing up the gun when they fire it off.

It is possible to use smokeless propellants in some guns. The .45 Colt and the .45-70 are two examples of it being done. But you have to be extremely careful though to not exceed the gun’s design capability. Not all guns are created equal.

They have made muzzleloaders that are designed to use smokeless propellants. But the user has to be extremely careful in loading the gun correctly. Most of the manufacturers quit making them due to the stupidity and laziness of people using and blowing them up. Then actually suing the manufacturer for their stupidity.

Absolutely these people are the ones who may have tried duplex loads…mixing 2different smokeless powders….a recipe for disaster….!!

 

[Lynnhawk]

I crossed paths with a video on this forum, can’t remember where, that demonstrated what happens with smokeless powder. Scary! It blew up every ML it was loaded in! I thought it was a bit of an over charge at 150 grains, but with BP I think the barrels would have survived? Is the issue the metal ML’s are made of? Barrel Wall thickness? How can a cheap black gun pop off smokeless forever and an expensive BP barrel becomes a cautionary tale? I don’t want to shoot the stuff, just curious.

Never never charge BP rifle or pistol with smokless powder…I have several BP rifles and pistol’s and two smokeless rifles and after several years of shooting all of them I have converted my BP loads from volume to weight as I do with smokeless…accuracy is much better and a lot safer as I know exactly what I am dropping down my barrel

 

[Lynnhawk]

Never never charge BP rifle or pistol with smokless powder…I have several BP rifles and pistol’s and two smokeless rifles and after several years of shooting all of them I have converted my BP loads from volume to weight as I do with smokeless…accuracy is much better and a lot safer as I know exactly what I am dropping down my barrel

 

[NorthFork]

30gr of 2400 instead of 30gr of 3Fg - the shooter was injured in the are of the eyes and forehead.

View attachment 178084

As an avid reloader of 'unmentionables', 30grs of 2400 is A LOT! Book max load for 44 Rem Mag using 2400 and if I recall correctly, a 200gr jacketed bullet, using 2400 is 24grs according to Alliant (maker of 2400)!

 

[earlwb]

I wouldn't be able to speculate what amount of smokeless would burst a ML barrel. As others here have said, these things are engineered for their intended purpose. The vids of people deliberately destroying guns baffle me...I've got less money and more common sense I guess.
I've heard of 3000+ fps in some smaller caliber inlines using a sabot and a large charge of synthetic BP. Not really anything I've had much interest to look into further.

Using real black powder with a sabot bullet the maximum muzzle velocity for a muzzleloader is a little over 2100 fps. I have read that from several people so far. Some of the BP substitutes can exceed that though. It is a problem with BP where the gasses have to push not only the bullet but the smoke particles and combustion products too. It all has weight or mass.

 

[William Lincoln]

When tradition points a certain way, follow it. The whole sport of muzzle-loading exists because certain folks like
to honor the old ways and traditions that gave us our freedoms in days of yore. There will always be those who
step off the edge of the Grand Canyon to test whether-or-not air will hold them up. Avoid experimenting.
Tradition says Black Powder or Similar substitutes if BP is not available.

 

[TFoley]

As an avid reloader of 'unmentionables', 30grs of 2400 is A LOT! Book max load for 44 Rem Mag using 2400 and if I recall correctly, a 200gr jacketed bullet, using 2400 is 24grs according to Alliant (maker of 2400)!

I had a collection of guns of the type at which you hint, and my TOP load was exactly that. In my wife's 4" version it was guaranteed to clear your ear-wax out.

 

[TFoley]

Using real black powder with a sabot bullet the maximum muzzle velocity for a muzzleloader is a little over 2100 fps. I have read that from several people so far. Some of the BP substitutes can exceed that though. It is a problem with BP where the gasses have to push not only the bullet but the smoke particles and combustion products too. It all has weight or mass.

SSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH! You wrote 's***t'!

 

[French Colonial]

I had a friend that was developing loads to shoot BPCR to 1000 yards for long range matches and started using duplex loads, rifle failed and lost an eye and then learned to shoot left-handed.

BP only in BP guns is my rule.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

I would load smokeless in my muzzleloaders the same day I would stuff a 45-90 case full of Tite-Group...

There will always be those who ignorantly tempt fate, be it MLs or modern arms. I've had interaction with these types...one I recall was a blowhard in one of the LGS I go to bragging about overcharging his 7 Rem Mag to get "a little more oomph".

And I don't bemoan threads like this. It's educational.