Why not a Kukri

[TNTraveler]

If you go to the Royal Palace in Madrid Spain, make sure you visit the armory, and in it you will find a Japanese Naginata on display, 5' handle 3' blade, Samurai used them to take the legs out from under a horse or take a soldier of a horse, you can tell its one that was used in war and not a ceremonial gift, I don't remember what the date on it was, but it was very old IIRC, always wondered how they obtained it, but couldn't read the Spanish writing

 

[TFoley]

It was a play on India being bordered with Nepal relevant to the discussion here ref how the Kukri could have "travelled" to America.

I'm very familiar with the Brit Army selection of Gurkha recruits, having served with them at times over my 37 year career in the Australian Army, and count among my circle of friends not only Brit Officers who served in Gurkha regiments, but also retired Gurkha NCO's and Soldiers.

Have you been to Nepal ?

Nope, and I only served 33 years in the British Army.

 

[TFoley]

There were verified accounts in WW1 where Gurkhas worked at night and did identify other Soldiers by the feel of the Tunic buttons.
In his book "Goodbye to all That" Robert Graves (a Brit Officer) describes a Gurkha Soldier in rear echelon (rest area) lining up for his daily food ration and asking for "back ups", to which the Cook replied "Bring me some Hun heads and I will". The next morning "Johnny Gurkha" was in the food line holding a hessian back dripping blood, one of the Brit Sergeants ordered the Gurkha to open the bag which he did to reveal 2 or 3 severed German heads.

I served with the Gurkhas for a couple of months in the 70's, believe me most of what you may have heard about them is probably true.

I was told by another Gurkha that in WW2 the 14th Army in Burma relied on Gurkha night patrols to identify Japanese by feeling the patterns of their laces, rather than tunic buttons.

British troops do not use criss-cross lacings.

 

[Dartwick]

Why not? Because they really arent the best choice for temperate and northern forests.

Ive owned one since I was a kid and I carried them plenty in the woods back in the day.

They are heavier than a hatchet and not as good for cutting wood. They are awkwardly oversized for butchering game, cutting cloth and preparing food. Yes I can camp with one but a hatchet and knife is better.
And if I really wanted the best weapon for fighting unarmored people it would be probably be a short sword.

I think they are more sensible weapon/tool for a sub-tropical area like Nepal. And sure, if lopping heads is your priority then ya, you need one.

 

[BruceB]

In his book "Quartered Safe Out Here", George Macdonald Frasier listed a kukri as part of his and his squad mates personal equipment along with a "bowie knife"carried in the WWII Burma campaigns.

 

[stickmann00]

Actually, while you’re right and a wide curved blade is not particularly great for a thrusting attack, the Kukri has design features that lend very well to the concept. True the shape of the blade is not optimal for the action. But the spine of the blade is about 1/4” thick. This makes the blade heavy. Combine that with the sweeping shape of the front of the blade and stabbing in a downward motion, ie at a target laying in the dirt, it will split right through the rib cage. In addition if you stabbed some one in the gut with it, that wide spine would cause a long triangle shaped wound that would be very difficult to suture, especially in the field. And the angles created by the shape and width of the blade make tearing it downward, after said stabbing, causing mortal wounds near impossible to recover from. The Gurkhas used these knives for combat and survival to great effect from their inception to the present day. My details on this story are a bit hazy, but at one point the French invaded Nepal. Somewhere around 5 Gurkhas infiltrated a French encampment and used their Kukris to severe the heads off of every other Frenchman without waking the rest. So half the camp woke up to their numbers brutally and effectively cut in half with such stealth that none of the living were roused from their sleep. The Gurkhas are tough as nails. There was one retired Gurkha on a train. He killed 5 armed men with his bare hands, so imagine what he could do with a Kukri. Point is I agree with you point that the knife isn’t pointy enough, however put that knife in the hands of a Gurkha, all points are null and void.

I just received a Kukri which I ordered from Nepal. It is a massive heavy weapon with a 1/4-inch spine. Yikes! I would not want to be on the receiving end.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

If you go to the Royal Palace in Madrid Spain, make sure you visit the armory, and in it you will find a Japanese Naginata on display, 5' handle 3' blade, Samurai used them to take the legs out from under a horse or take a soldier of a horse, you can tell its one that was used in war and not a ceremonial gift, I don't remember what the date on it was, but it was very old IIRC, always wondered how they obtained it, but couldn't read the Spanish writing

Saw this one in Japan.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

Not a great design for stabbing. It might be a good knife to have if my opponent had one,
There are way too many potential variables in a knife fight to say you should always have this or that weapon.
My all purpose camp/utility knife may not be the one I should fight with. If i am taken by surprise I had best be able to fight with whatever I can put my hand on.
In that circumstance, mind set and training will be more important than any blade consideration. And this: Shooting and killing someone at a distance is one thing. Feeling your blade take his life as you struggle to free it from his ribs is quite another,
Should you be faced with using a knife in this kind of circumstance? Squeamish is likely that very last thing you can afford to be.
Be very sure you are justified in your use of force.

I say this in partial jest, but quite a few British soldiers of the Victorian era would disagree.

 

[TNTraveler]

Saw this one in Japan.

View attachment 218291

Nice, unfortunately they didn't allow pics in the armory at the Palace, and had guards making sure

 

[Two Feathers]

I brought a few of them back from SE Asia in the 60's, but they were pretty much tourist trade crap and I gave them away. I DID like the litle companion knives that rode on the outside of the big sheath. I might still have one of those here?
God bless:
Two Feathers

 

[Teliliad]

Just FYI the Kukri is not native to Nepal.
It's a reduced size Greek Kopis

View attachment 218139

The exposure to the Kopis came with the Arrival of the forces of Alexander the Great

The Nepalese reduced the size as they could not replicate the large blades at first, as their metal was weaker than the Greeks'. They figured it out, but their shorter blades were lighter, handier, and faster for mountain life and their style of fighting, when the Kopis was for hoplites in a phalanx. However, the Nepalese do have much larger versions of the kukri which are Kopis size, used for butchering large animals.... I've seen a tape of the decap of food animals with one blow from a Nepalese Kopis.

FYI The "one knife does it all" scenario is a bit of Balderdash picked up in the 20 the century. It assumes that folks didn't have the brains to figure out how to make such a knife. Then for some reason it becomes some sort of "test" of a "good survival knife" as wilderness survival became a thing in the 1960's. Nobody ever questions the premise, and (imho) any modern "survivalist" or "survival expert" who talks about such, and especially demonstrates "batoning" of firewood has just proved he's not an "expert". It's a silly "test". I've spent many days in the woods, never found a natural piece of wood that would suffice as a baton to beat my knife's spine to make it split wood..... and the folks that literally lived for years depending on their survival tools in North America, and would be true experts..., carried the 'hawk and a knife.

The people who ended up being European colonists were very well versed with the idea of the multiple tool/weapon...
View attachment 218145


They also applied it from colonial times to today, in hand tools

This is a fascine knife. It has a hooked blade for delimbing small limbs from trees and shrubs, and an axe blade for chopping, and could easily have been made with an additional thrusting tip.

View attachment 218141 View attachment 218142

They are so useful in North America, they are still made today, as one can see from the example on the left.

Part of the reason why a Kukri might not have caught on would be the cost. The entirety of those blades have to be good steel. The Tomahawk in a vast majority of cases was a billet of wrought iron wrapped around a mandrel, and then forge welded, with a steel insert welded into the blade position. even with a hammer poll this was done. Add a rather long handle and a small, inexpensively made trade hatchet is a very good tool and a formidable hand weapon. This then allows the frontiersman to spend his money on a good sized, steel, butcher knife for his "long knife", and also likely carried a smaller trade knife. Modern smiths often opt for a steel that even when they wrap-and-weld is good steel for a blade, and skip a step, or they start with a good steel billet, and make the 'hawk with a different procedure. IF you find a smith making 'hawks with iron or low grade steel, and inserting a small piece of quality steel for the blade edge, that smith is doing a rather authentic technique.

View attachment 218143

View attachment 218144

LD

That was incredibly informative. Thank you for taking the time!!!

 

[stephenprops1]

Actually, while you’re right and a wide curved blade is not particularly great for a thrusting attack, the Kukri has design features that lend very well to the concept. True the shape of the blade is not optimal for the action. But the spine of the blade is about 1/4” thick. This makes the blade heavy. Combine that with the sweeping shape of the front of the blade and stabbing in a downward motion, ie at a target laying in the dirt, it will split right through the rib cage. In addition if you stabbed some one in the gut with it, that wide spine would cause a long triangle shaped wound that would be very difficult to suture, especially in the field. And the angles created by the shape and width of the blade make tearing it downward, after said stabbing, causing mortal wounds near impossible to recover from. The Gurkhas used these knives for combat and survival to great effect from their inception to the present day. My details on this story are a bit hazy, but at one point the French invaded Nepal. Somewhere around 5 Gurkhas infiltrated a French encampment and used their Kukris to severe the heads off of every other Frenchman without waking the rest. So half the camp woke up to their numbers brutally and effectively cut in half with such stealth that none of the living were roused from their sleep. The Gurkhas are tough as nails. There was one retired Gurkha on a train. He killed 5 armed men with his bare hands, so imagine what he could do with a Kukri. Point is I agree with you point that the knife isn’t pointy enough, however put that knife in the hands of a Gurkha, all points are null and void.

I have read that the Muslim Scimitar is another knife/sword that is no good for thrusting. Supposedly, it is good for slashing.

 

[Dale Lilly]

Probably because these were so much cooler. View attachment 217688

I like this size better; 4" blade, 8" overall. I made this one in 1991. [Faux ivory]. Dale

 

[Coinneach]

Why not? Because they really arent the best choice for temperate and northern forests.

Ive owned one since I was a kid and I carried them plenty in the woods back in the day.

They are heavier than a hatchet and not as good for cutting wood. They are awkwardly oversized for butchering game, cutting cloth and preparing food. Yes I can camp with one but a hatchet and knife is better.
And if I really wanted the best weapon for fighting unarmored people it would be probably be a short sword.

I think they are more sensible weapon/tool for a sub-tropical area like Nepal. And sure, if lopping heads is your priority then ya, you need one.

Well I've watched Gurkhas decapitate Goats, gut and skin them effectively using their Kukris with ease. When skinning they held the Kukri by the back of the Blade with their hand clamped like a vice, it worked well for them and the skins came off intact.

 

[Coinneach]

Nope, and I only served 33 years in the British Army.

It took you 33 years to realise that you were in the wrong Army ?

BTW its a joke, a few of my Brit Army mates regretted not transferring over to the Aussie Army when they had the opportunity.
One of them Captain (later Major) Jon Titley (RIP beloved comrade) was a 6th Gurkha Rifles Officer, he did a 2 year exchange with my Battalion 3RAR and was much loved by us all.
Imagine a Brit Officer ("Pommy Gent" in Aussie parlance) reading "Winnie the Poo" and showing the books pictures to his Aussie Diggers first day of his command !
We knew then that he was a remarkable character and unique Officer.

 

[Coinneach]

Saw this one in Japan.

View attachment 218291

Very little resemblance to a Gurkha Kukri.

 

[Coinneach]

I have read that the Muslim Scimitar is another knife/sword that is no good for thrusting. Supposedly, it is good for slashing.

I've collected Swords over decades many of them originals.
The Cut verses Thrust arguments have never been resolved, but what is fact is that the French were in terror of the Brit Hussars equipped with the 1796 Light Cavalry Sword (based on the Indian Tulwar Sword ) during the Napoleonic Wars.
The Brit Hussars were adept at butchering both French Cavalrymen and Infantry with the 1796 curved Sword, being trained in "the Seven Cuts" as developed by a Brit Cavalry officer John Gaspard Le Marchant who also designed the 1796 Cavalry Sword.

I've carried and used that Sword in Horse mounted Skill at Arms training and competitions, and used the Brit 1908 Cavalry Sword (straight bladed) as well.
IMHO the Brit 1796 curved blade Cavalry Sword is the better of the two, why ?
Because it can be easily wielded against multiple targets without having to be withdrawn (alternately trapped) from each individual target like the straight bladed 1908 Sword.
Some would argue that a curved bladed Sword rarely kills out right and I have to agree, but in reply would argue that anyone having suffered a good slashing that easily delivers savagely butchering wounds is realistically rendered "hors de combat".

My personal favourite Sword is the Brit 1796 Light Cavalry version, Cold Steel produce a reasonably good copy but far too heavier than the originals (I have 3 originals in my collection, one being Ivory handled)
Dont ever sneer at the Muslim Scimitar as they were very effectively applied as early as the Crusades era.

Attached photos of "his nibs in an earlier life" with the Napoleonic reenactors 15th Hussars (Light Cavalry) thats a 1796 Light Cav Sword you see there..

 

[mushka]

Good looking horse too.

 

[Coinneach]

Good looking horse too.

Thats "Angel" she was one of my all time Fav Australian Stock Horse Mares, I lost her in property settlement to my Ex Wife it was a case of making hard choices, managed to retain 7 (now 5) of my best Horses though.

 

[mushka]

Sorry to hear that but is is a problem with having a wife sometimes and getting rid of her.