Why the flare on swamped barrels?

[Grenadier1758]

When the barrel maker is forging a barrel, the shape is controlled using a half octagon mandrel. The mandrel establishes a shape for the barrel. It also has several sizes for the across the flats dimension as the barrel metal is moved during the forging and welding process. The smith forging the barrel is fully aware that the end result is going to be swamped. He can control some of the amount of swamping through planned use of the irons' tendency to move during the forging process as regularly larger octagon mandrels are used. In terms case of the extreme swamping of a Jaeger barrel, the smith used the movement of the metal during forging to take some weight out of the center section of the barrel. Use of the forging mandrel gave the smith initial control of the barrel shape and less filing of the rough profile from the forging.

 

[SDSmlf]

Swamping of the early barrels was an unintended consequence of the barrel building process.

Not disagreeing or agreeing because I don’t know with certainty why barrels were swamped.

Question for you. How did a blunderbuss barrel come about? The flare seems a bit more than unintended. Always thought the blunderbuss barrel flare was just an intentional development continuation of the swamped barrel, but that’s just speculation on my part with no evidence.

 

[flatcreek]

Only the first one was unintentional, after that they knew they were on to something and run with it.

 

[Jay Templin]

Not disagreeing or agreeing because I don’t know with certainty why barrels were swamped.

Question for you. How did a blunderbuss barrel come about? The flare seems a bit more than unintended. Always thought the blunderbuss barrel flare was just an intentional development continuation of the swamped barrel, but that’s just speculation on my part with no evidence.

Blunderbuss was designed for ease of loading on a moving vehicle.
Jay

 

[Grenadier1758]

I strongly disagree. If you have enough skill to forge a barrel, you can certainly control the final shape. Look at Jaeger barrels with their HEAVY swamp. No way this was unintended. Nope.

I must agree with Jim. The swamping of a barrel during forging is a consequence or result of the movement of the red hot iron being shaped around a mandrel. I should have used result instead of unintended consequence. In the Colonial Williamsburgh video, Wallace Gussler did state he was making a swamped barrel. He used several octagonal forging mandrels to shape the barrel as he forged the flat skelp of iron onto the barrel.

The metal movement starts from the initial weld in the forging process and metal is pushed toward the muzzle and the breech. The competent gun smiths forging barrels certainly knew this and used ever larger octagonal forming mandrels to shape the barrel to the profile they wanted. Final shaping was done by draw filing any rough spots out as the bore was straightened out during the bore alignment process.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Not disagreeing or agreeing because I don’t know with certainty why barrels were swamped.

Question for you. How did a blunderbuss barrel come about? The flare seems a bit more than unintended. Always thought the blunderbuss barrel flare was just an intentional development continuation of the swamped barrel, but that’s just speculation on my part with no evidence.

The flare of the muzzle of a blunderbuss is a result of the smith forging that shape as the red hot metal is formed around a cone.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I think it was mostly style back then. They look good!

They do look good, but nope, wasn't just for style. There is a HUGE difference in carrying, mounting, swinging, and holding on target between a swamped barrel and a straight or straight-tapered barrel. I speak from experience.

I have two longrifles. One is a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle from about 2003 or 2004 when they came with a 40¼" straight barrel. The other is an Early Lancaster with a 44½" swamped barrel. The straight barrel and all BP Octagon straight barrels are nose heavy. The significantly longer Early Lancaster rifle seen in my avatar (with the butt resting on the ground) is perfectly balanced to the point where I normally hold onto the forearm with my left hand. It's far easier to carry, mount, swing, and hold on target than the straight barreled and shorter Traditions longrifle - no comparison. My much longer Early Lancaster is almost 2-lbs lighter than the Traditions too.

The barrels in the 1700's and all rifled barrels until Remington developed their method to drill out steal blanks in about 1838, were all hammer forge-welded by hand out of a flat skelp of iron. If the gunsmith making the barrel wanted the muzzle to be thinner, he could have kept moving the iron with his hammer like blacksmiths always do. That doesn't mean that someone didn't accidentally do it that way once upon a time or just leave it thicker because they didn't want to hammer any more; but the Moravians in Germany had been making rifles with swamped barrels since the 1600's and the gunsmiths who migrated to America were some of those Moravians who had previously been building Jaeger rifles in some of the German provinces. Those Jaeger rifles were much shorter than the American Longrifles and also fired a larger lead ball. Over time, those Jaeger rifles evolved into the longer, smaller caliber American Longrifle. So in America, building a a swamped barrel was already common practice by the gunsmiths moving here from Germany.

Here's an example of a Jeager rifle:

Here's a shot of my Early Lancaster American Longrifle.(with a swamped barrel). Balance is superb resulting in exceptional handling.:

And here's a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle, which is shorter, much bulkier, has a straight barrel and is heavier than my Early Lancaster rifle above. As with all straight or straight-tapered barrels it is nose-heavy. It also has an adjustable rear sight which was not available in the 18th century.

Prior to Remington inventing a long, hollow, drill bit to drill through steel blanks, drill bits never lasted very long when attempting to drill steel blanks. Drilling those steel blanks generated too much heat and would anneal the bit ruining it before the blank was a usable length. With the hollow drill bit though, Remington could (and did) continually feed cutting oil to the the tip of the bit to keep it cutting without generating too much heat. Barrels also got a lot shorter when they did that and half-stock guns became the norm.

Here's a shot of a Hawken percussion cap rifle from the Cody Museum's collection:

That drilled barrel dropped the construction time for a barrel down from perhaps a week of hand-hammering to make one barrel to just hours or perhaps a day to make one. It also allowed for accurate and repeatable calibers whereas with the hammer forge-welded barrels you could end up with many different calibers from folding that skelp around the same mandrel and then reaming it out to make sure it was straight before rifling it. These variances were so unique to each gun that the price of a new rifle included the bag mold to make the correct size lead ball to fit it. Using that long, hollow drill bit to drill it out also eliminated the need for a mandrel to build it around, or reaming out the barrel before rifling it. .50-caliber barrels were always .50 caliber. Prior to that it might have come out anywhere from about .49 caliber to .54 caliber using the same mandrel to build the barrels around.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I must agree with Jim. The swamping of a barrel during forging is a consequence or result of the movement of the red hot iron being shaped around a mandrel. I should have used result instead of unintended consequence. In the Colonial Williamsburgh video, Wallace Gussler did state he was making a swamped barrel. He used several octagonal forging mandrels to shape the barrel as he forged the flat skelp of iron onto the barrel.

The metal movement starts from the initial weld in the forging process and metal is pushed toward the muzzle and the breech. The competent gun smiths forging barrels certainly knew this and used ever larger octagonal forming mandrels to shape the barrel to the profile they wanted. Final shaping was done by draw filing any rough spots out as the bore was straightened out during the bore alignment process.

You're confusing me with the use of the work "mandrels". The mandrel goes inside the barrel. The mandrel was the round rod of steel that the skelp was hammer forge-welded around. The mandrel was like a long round rod bent at 90° on the end so you could use a hammer on it to get it out of the barrel if it was stuck after forging that skelp around it. It was not uncommon to have some inconsistencies in the bore that required boring out (reaming out) to make the bore straight, smooth, and true with no bumps or fissures. That reaming out is what caused the resulting barrels to end up with different calibers when using the same mandrel.

It's been a number of years since I spoke with the Gussler, the gunsmith at Williamsburg, about the octagon shaped barrel (I believe he is retired now) and I asked if they used the equivalent of some kind of draw knife to make the flats. He said no that it was hammered into that shape and then he used files to dress it up so everything looked perfect.

Did you mean he used some type of form that he slid over the barrel to check the shape and thickness at various spots?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Yes, @Twisted_1in66, I got the mandrel confused with the octagonal forging die that the skelp was hammer welded to the octagonal shape.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Yes, @Twisted_1in66, I got the mandrel confused with the octagonal forging die that the skelp was hammer welded to the octagonal shape.

Thanks for that! I was wondering what you meant.

 

[Flint1]

In the early 2000's, after a deliberation of several months, I decided to place an order with Narragansett Armes for their Early Virginia Rifle. The basic rifle was actually a smooth rifle with an octagon to round barrel. As an option you could get the octagon to round barrel rifled, which was to be my choice. Literally the very night before I called to place my order, I read in Muzzle Blasts the Gunsmith of Grenville County column, and it happened to be about swamped barrels. As soon as I read that article I decided to change my choice to the Colerain swamped barrel. Best firearms decision I ever made.

 

[Philip A.]

They do look good, but nope, wasn't just for style. There is a HUGE difference in carrying, mounting, swinging, and holding on target between a swamped barrel and a straight or straight-tapered barrel. I speak from experience.

I have two longrifles. One is a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle from about 2003 or 2004 when they came with a 40¼" straight barrel. The other is an Early Lancaster with a 44½" swamped barrel. The straight barrel and all BP Octagon straight barrels are nose heavy. The significantly longer Early Lancaster rifle seen in my avatar (with the butt resting on the ground) is perfectly balanced to the point where I normally hold onto the forearm with my left hand. It's far easier to carry, mount, swing, and hold on target than the straight barreled and shorter Traditions longrifle - no comparison. My much longer Early Lancaster is almost 2-lbs lighter than the Traditions too.

The barrels in the 1700's and all rifled barrels until Remington developed their method to drill out steal blanks in about 1838, were all hammer forge-welded by hand out of a flat skelp of iron. If the gunsmith making the barrel wanted the muzzle to be thinner, he could have kept moving the iron with his hammer like blacksmiths always do. That doesn't mean that someone didn't accidentally do it that way once upon a time or just leave it thicker because they didn't want to hammer any more; but the Moravians in Germany had been making rifles with swamped barrels since the 1600's and the gunsmiths who migrated to America were some of those Moravians who had previously been building Jaeger rifles in some of the German provinces. Those Jaeger rifles were much shorter than the American Longrifles and also fired a larger lead ball. Over time, those Jaeger rifles evolved into the longer, smaller caliber American Longrifle. So in America, building a a swamped barrel was already common practice by the gunsmiths moving here from Germany.

Here's an example of a Jeager rifle:
View attachment 333040
Here's a shot of my Early Lancaster American Longrifle.(with a swamped barrel). Balance is superb resulting in exceptional handling.:
View attachment 333044

And here's a Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle, which is shorter, much bulkier, has a straight barrel and is heavier than my Early Lancaster rifle above. As with all straight or straight-tapered barrels it is nose-heavy. It also has an adjustable rear sight which was not available in the 18th century.
View attachment 333056

Prior to Remington inventing a long, hollow, drill bit to drill through steel blanks, drill bits never lasted very long when attempting to drill steel blanks. Drilling those steel blanks generated too much heat and would anneal the bit ruining it before the blank was a usable length. With the hollow drill bit though, Remington could (and did) continually feed cutting oil to the the tip of the bit to keep it cutting without generating too much heat. Barrels also got a lot shorter when they did that and half-stock guns became the norm.

Here's a shot of a Hawken percussion cap rifle from the Cody Museum's collection:

View attachment 333046

That drilled barrel dropped the construction time for a barrel down from perhaps a week of hand-hammering to make one barrel to just hours or perhaps a day to make one. It also allowed for accurate and repeatable calibers whereas with the hammer forge-welded barrels you could end up with many different calibers from folding that skelp around the same mandrel and then reaming it out to make sure it was straight before rifling it. These variances were so unique to each gun that the price of a new rifle included the bag mold to make the correct size lead ball to fit it. Using that long, hollow drill bit to drill it out also eliminated the need for a mandrel to build it around, or reaming out the barrel before rifling it. .50-caliber barrels were always .50 caliber. Prior to that it might have come out anywhere from about .49 caliber to .54 caliber using the same mandrel to build the barrels around.

Twisted, thanks for a very interesting insight, I had never thought of barrels becoming shorter when they started to be drilled instead of forged... Makes perfect sense.

Regarding barrels and balance, in the late 1800's, British gunmakers perfected the fit and balance of rifles that were used for big game (read "Stuff the size of a SUV, with fangs, claws, horns, tusks, armor plates, and the temper of Mike Tyson after having his left testicle stepped on"). This was colloquially known as "putting the weight between your hands", i.e roughly half-way between the wrist and the point where you hold the forearm. Barrels were tapered and kept thin at the muzzle, and these rifles were meant to mount very fast and fit perfectly.

I have handled hunting rifles with heavy, quasi-straight barrels, and it feels like swinging a sledge hammer. An abomination for anything except punching paper from a stationary position.

A long barrel, no matter its shape, will put the weight forward, towards or on the supporting hand, or even beyond that if it's a straight barrel. If you get down to practical hunting barrel lengths, which are below 26"-28", the difference in balance point between a tapered and a swamped barrel will be very small, and would be better on a thin taper than on a swamped due to simple physics. If the swamped has a very thin waist and a light flare, it could balance half an inch or so aft of what a tapered would. Add a heavy flare, like on modern swamped barrels, and that balance point moves forward fast.

All this to say that a long barrel has, due to non-negotiable physics constraints, a poor balance for a hunting rifle. A long swamped barrel has a noticeably "less horrible" balance than a straight one, but I wouldn't call that "good".

When you get into shorter barrels you can have a really good balance if the rest of the rifle is properly built, and then a swamped or a tapered barrel are very close to each other.