Why would a ML rifle have a high POI?

[dave951]

I think one of the purposes of the high POI is as the old timers would say "bury the bead"...that way you can adjust for long distance shooting.

THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^

Don't molest your sights. LEARN HOW TO SHOOT!!! With quality modern repops, it's a rare gun that will need barrel bending or major sight work.

 

[Whisper]

I bought a used TC Renegade years back for a very low price. When I received the rifle it was in great shape so I wondered why the guy was selling so cheap. Well when I went to the range I realized why. It was shooting 12” high at 50 yards. I looked at different sights but none would do the job. I thought this can’t be normal so I put a straight edge on the barrel and discovered it was bent. So I used a hydraulic press and straightened it. Now it shoots great with no other changes. Just for the heck of it put a straight edge on it. Good luck!

 

[ETipp]

Again, from a marksmanship instructor, you can adjust how you align the sights for best accuracy with your gun. Check out the following links that have illustrations to what I've been talking about. There is NO law that you have to use a 6 oclock hold, nor is there a law that you have to center the sights relative to each other. That is pure and total BS. The old guns had low front posts and if you insist on shooting it with a modern sight picture, you'll get exactly the results you have been getting. Molesting the rear or front post is counterproductive. Learn the old ways.

http://www.odcmp.org/0907/default.asp?page=USAMU_SIGHTPICTURE
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/12/learning-to-shoot-with-open-sights-part-1/

Thank you for the information, Dave.

There is some truth to what the article states, in terms of "trying" to adjust for elevation. But holding 6" low on a squirrel at 25 yards, or trying to compensate for it with a tiny bit of front bead showing is not my idea of hunting. That's even if it is possible in this instance, which I do no think it was doable. Not when it can be rectified with better sights. The author plainly states that "a person with good vision". Now take into consideration low light hunting conditions, as well as aging eyes, and the situation can change drastically. By filing down the original front sight, as well as old eyes, I am living proof of both. A finer bead works, but only as long as one can clearly see it. And its no secret that in poor light conditions a fine bead is most difficult to see, at best.

It's simply strange to attempt to do such when better sights, either taller or of different styles are available. I see no reason to throw in another variable.

There is a reason why peep sights became available and popular back in the 1800's.

 

[Old Sparky]

I had the same problem with my traditions Kentucky pistol shooting ridiculously high. My temporary solution was to take a pair of wire cutters and split the front sight blade horizontally and I bent that part up. Then at the range I filed it down to point of aim. Now that I know the exact height that I need I'm going to replace the blade of the front sight with a silver coin. I am thinking seated liberty dime for style points LOL

 

[Tenring]

I also shoot PRS besides ML and have fitted many a Barrel and everyone of them are like a woman very different in every way.

 

[smokepolehall]

I agree that something is wrong. I even call Traditions and spoke with their gun smith about this. His reply was "Don't really know".

This does not have an effect on windage and after I finally got the original sight filed down low enough it had no factor on elevation that I know of.

Traditions gun smith does not know how to correct the front sight issue. That tells me not to buy another Traditions ML. Its getting to where we have no good factory made ML's to purchase. So that leaves us to build our own

 

[Rifleman1776]

A finer bead works,

True. Look at some originals in museums. In many/most cases the front sight is so tiny as to almost be not there. I've never understood that. Especially since there were not any optical shops to be found every quarter mile in the forests.

 

[Tenring]

Traditions gun smith does not know how to correct the front sight issue. That tells me not to buy another Traditions ML. Its getting to where we have no good factory made ML's to purchase. So that leaves us to build our own

I would rather build my own , it really seems things went down hill.

 

[pacanis]

Regardless, IMO, if the two sights are properly aligned and held on the desired POA and all POI are grouped well windage wise, but still high, this is not an individual eyesight or head placement on the stock issue. The sights are either lined up or they are not.

Can't argue that.
Iron sights are NOT like a red dot where all you need to do is find it at any head angle and it will hit where it's pointed.
Iron sights are either lined up or not. Or compensated for.

 

[ETipp]

True. Look at some originals in museums. In many/most cases the front sight is so tiny as to almost be not there. I've never understood that. Especially since there were not any optical shops to be found every quarter mile in the forests.

Makes one wonder how they could even see those tiny sights in low light conditions. And I would bet a cup of coffee that none hit 6" high from 25 yards.

 

[Bunk]

There's a formula. It's especially useful when ordering a new front sight, but you could also use it to do what you did, adjust the rear sight. It works for drifting a sight for windage, too.

inches you want to move POI x sight radius / inches to target

So, let's say you are 12" high at 30yds and the measurement from the rear sight to the front sight is 27"

12x27/1080=0.30"

You would have to add .3" to the front sight to bring it down 12"
Or lower the rear sight by .3".

That said, maybe the rifle sights are regulated for 100yds. Or maybe you need to adjust the powder charge. Or like already mentioned, maybe you should bury the front blade in the rear sight's notch. Although it's nice to use the same sight picture, so that would be a last resort for me. I only do that for guns with a brass bead front sight and not a blade.

filing down the front sight on my 1851 Colt Navy is my present project.
With only a 9 and 7/8 inch sight radius it is a slow tedious process.
One inch movement is 0.013" which is pretty small cut. But group center has been moved from 12" low to about 4" stopped right now by weather.
This is a strictly measure twice STOP measure twice again then cut.
Moving toward center
Bunk

 

[ETipp]

THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^

Don't molest your sights. LEARN HOW TO SHOOT!!! With quality modern repops, it's a rare gun that will need barrel bending or major sight work.

With all due respect, I find some of your comments to be the most out of line posts I have ever seen from someone that is "suppose" to be an instructor. For beginners, you have no idea of each persons eyesight. And to tell someone not to "molest" their sights and to just "LEARN HOW TO SHOOT" proves just that.

After reading all of your comments on this subject and in this post, especially just "bury the bead", and knowing full well my vision, as well as my particular ML, I decided to heed your advice and take action. From someone that grew up with a .22 over my shoulder that had fixed sights (from back in the 60's) that does know how to shoot, I knew there was more to this conundrum. So, I installed a Tom A Hawks peep sight. Then after some testing it became apparent that the front bead was not optimum (for my ML, eyesight and the peep) so I promptly removed it and did as you stated. I buried it, right in the bottom of my ML box. Installed a taller front bead of a different diameter and design. Now I get a clear sight picture, my groups have tightened up with no high POI, and I spent the weekend out squirrel hunting. Even during low light conditions I was able to clearly see well and hit squirrels.

Imagine that!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A solution has been found, and the shooter-owner is doing much better with the rifle.

LD