Will a flintlock stop a bear?

[Dphar]

The nervous system is an organ system containing a network of specialized cells called neurons that coordinate the actions of an animal and transmit signals between different parts of its body. In most animals the nervous system consists of two parts, central and peripheral. The central nervous system contains the brain, spinal cord, and retina.

Head shot and preferably right through an eye.

you dont shoot bears in the head, the bullets bounce off

You read this in a book or been actually out talking to people?
A friend of mine killed a sow in AK with a Colt Woodsman back in the 50s. Was shooting for her mouth and hit the eye.
You take the shot offered.
A guy killed a bear on the Russian River a few years ago, 5 maybe, with a 9mm handgun. Don't know shot placement but bet it was not a chest shot.
If the bear is really close and is shot in the chest with a 54 round ball he is almost surely going to damage the shooter to some extent. The old timers liked head shots and behind the ear I have read. But where in the head is the important part.
If the bear is not stationary (as in coming your way) shots to the chest front or mouth may be the only choice.

Dan

 

[BrownBear]

I'm tracking down the witness, who happens to be a friend of mine. He's a bear guide and out guiding clients at the moment, but his wife said he's due in Thursday and I can probably catch him then.

Here's what I'm tracking:

I got a report from another reliable friend that a guy who lived here in the 60's and 70's killed three Kodiaks with a flintlock- one shot each. And my bear guide friend was reprotedly with him as backup. I'm more than a little interested to verify, and if true, get the details.

Stay tuned.

 

[Dphar]

I'm tracking down the witness, who happens to be a friend of mine. He's a bear guide and out guiding clients at the moment, but his wife said he's due in Thursday and I can probably catch him then.

Here's what I'm tracking:

I got a report from another reliable friend that a guy who lived here in the 60's and 70's killed three Kodiaks with a flintlock- one shot each. And my bear guide friend was reprotedly with him as backup. I'm more than a little interested to verify, and if true, get the details.

Stay tuned.

Sounds very interesting. Would love to hear details especially caliber and shot placement etc.
There is no reason that a 54 will not kill big bears.
But...
Hitting a heavy leg bone on an elk really cuts the penetration on the 54 RB. So avoiding big bones is a good idea.
So very careful shot placement is a must.
I would not worry too much about shooting a bear at 40-50 yards or even farther with the 16 bore rifle, but the ball is twice as heavy as a 54 and 1600 fps is easily doable. With hardened lead balls it should be better bear medicine than a modern shotgun slug since it will penetrate better.
Forsythe states the 16 bore is about as small as anyone would use on dangerous game in India. This means Tiger, Elephant etc. In its day it filled the slot the "medium bore" cartridges do today with exceptions. Trying a frontal head shot on an African Elephant would be really dumb.
With WW balls a 16 should have enough power to break a substantial bone on large NA game and continue on since it will deform much less than pure lead.
The stuntman with the patch over one eye killed a Rhino in Africa with a 58 Flint Kentucky loaded with a heavy charge of powder and 2 balls. It was written up in a late 60s Muzzle Blasts. There was a cover shot of him with a Leopard he killed with a custom Hawken on the cover I think.
So it can be done.
I had forgotten about this African hunt article until now. Will have to dig this up and read it again.

Dan

 

[poordevil]

The explorer Bering, shot and killed a Polor Bear with a Brown Bess. I don't know if it droped dead or ran around for a while, though.

 

[Zoar]

Nose, EYE, mouth...

If a bear is coming at me and/or literally in my face I have to aim some where even if it is more "pointing" somewhere.

Pick one from above and that is where I am pointing/aiming. And I still think---even in a split second---if at all possible, it would be the EYE I go for.

I can't fathom how you can get a chest shot on a G-bear coming right at you and at close range. The head is most of the available target.

If it is NOT coming right at you, why shoot it in defense?

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I think it's all about having a good, heavy hunting type load in the gun and then providing good shot placement. Properly adjusted, as many know, the flinter is a good piece of equipment and can provide reliable service. Undoubtedly this it would be scary, and you'd need to really be locked in to get the proper shot off, but it seems to me it could be done. Perhaps with adrenaline and that "slow motion" type effect people can get under pressure, it could be done.

 

[Zoar]

S L O W W W W W M O T I O N....

as long as the ball isn't moving that way!

Hahaha

But yes I bet it might happen that way! :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

Perhaps with adrenaline and that "slow motion" type effect people can get under pressure, it could be done.

Been there, done that, on brown bear charges. I can testify to the slow motion effect.

Didn't help much though, the one time I was almost certain I was going to get bounced around. I pulled the trigger on my 375 as I released the safety and fired a shot into orbit somewhere. By the time I cycled the action the bear had stopped at about 15 feet, then turned away. No consolation with a one-shooter.

But even as everything else seems to slow down, I can also testify that your bladder and bowel go into hyperdrive!! :rotf:

 

[rabjr]

Nose, EYE, mouth...

If a bear is coming at me and/or literally in my face I have to aim some where even if it is more "pointing" somewhere.

Pick one from above and that is where I am pointing/aiming. And I still think---even in a split second---if at all possible, it would be the EYE I go for.

I can't fathom how you can get a chest shot on a G-bear coming right at you and at close range. The head is most of the available target.

If it is NOT coming right at you, why shoot it in defense?

"Suck on this!" Comes to mind. I know in that situation the barrel of whatever gun I'm using would be between me and the bear and shoved into it's mouth best I could before pulling the trigger. I would hope I would have the calm nerves to do so but any other way just does not look like a better out come.

 

[redwing]

The problem is, when you are attacked it is like a head on with a Freightliner. It is fast unexpected and very violent. I have known two fellows who have lived thru Grizz attacks. Both incidents during the Wyoming Elk season. Both men have gone thru years of treatments, and will never be completely healed. In one case the hunters partner was able to finish the fight with 5, 150Grs. .270 rounds. In the other case the dead bear was found 500 yards from the victim dead. This bear had been hit 3 times with his 7MM Remington with 165 grs loads and 5, 240 grs. 44 Mags. The bear had charged from about 20 yards in which the 7MM were fired. The pistol rounds were fired during the time the hunter was held down by the bear. In this case the very cold weather kept the victim from bleeding to death. Back in the day of flinters would one shot have ended the fight? If you could pick the time and place most likely. If the Grizz picked the time of attack you have to wonder. :hmm:

 

[Zoar]

Red--I appreciate the round count but what I'd really like to know is WHERE did the rounds hit the bears? What part of the anatomies and as precise as possible. I am big believer that body shots on a bear while they may end up being fatal they take far too long to take effect in a bear charge scenario. Nervous system (head shot/spine) and/or blinding them.

 

[BadHorse]

Sometimes you just gotta feed the wildlife. Of course only a hit to the brain or spinal cord will guarantee a stop. But sometimes one shot elsewhere will do it. If you get ambushed by a grizzly, a machine gun would be no better than a squirrel rifle.

ok i gotta comment here, someone all ready mentioned that most hunter do not know the anatomy of the animals they are hunting,,,,, i can seriously agree with this. and hanshi old friend, you dont know how to hunt bear. when i was 16, back in the mid 1970's (damn that made me feel old) i read an article in the NRA's magazine about hand gun hunting. one part of this article was about a fool that shot a brown bear 6 times in the head with a 357mag, gave the bear a ripping headache and really pissed the bear off. the point i guess im making here is, i do like to bear hunt, ive learned the anatomy of this animal, and i know there are 2 places you do not shoot a bear, 1 never ever in the head. 2 do not shoot them in the sternum. true this does make it a little harder, but not impossible. im perfectly comfortable hunting bear with my 50cal hawkens or one of my 50 cal flinters, no big deal. and if you know your weapon, and your quick, 2 shots at 50 yards is no big deal. and no i dont carry a side arm. some times i'll have a friend in tow, and they also will be carrying a front stuffer. it all boils down to knowing your prey so you arent on there food chain.

Red--I appreciate the round count but what I'd really like to know is WHERE did the rounds hit the bears? What part of the anatomies and as precise as possible. I am big believer that body shots on a bear while they may end up being fatal they take far too long to take effect in a bear charge scenario. Nervous system (head shot/spine) and/or blinding them.

DO NOT SHOOT BEARS IN THE HEAD! BONES TO THICK AND HARD THE BULLETS DONT GO THROUGH, YOU JUST PISS OFF THE BEAR

 

[Zoar]

Here is a soundly written article on the topic with input from people who have "been there"....
http://www.sportsafield.com/hunting-stories/Grizzlydefense.htm

 

[Dphar]

Red--I appreciate the round count but what I'd really like to know is WHERE did the rounds hit the bears? What part of the anatomies and as precise as possible. I am big believer that body shots on a bear while they may end up being fatal they take far too long to take effect in a bear charge scenario. Nervous system (head shot/spine) and/or blinding them.

This is perfectly true. But when the bears head in chewing on your hunting companion the head shot is not the best choice. Then if the bear is standing over the victim a head or brain shot may kill the victim when the bear falls on him.
There is no "best way" that will encompass all possibilities.

However, a large caliber lead ball, one ounce or larger, is probably a better one shot stopper on such animals at close range than many of the modern firearms.
As bear populations are ballooning right now in the "Yellowstone Ecosystem" attacks and problem bears are on the rise so I tend to carry something with a much larger ball size when hunting south of town now.
I suspect the increase in bears is from the increased food available from the 10s of thousands of wolf killed elk carcasses in the region many the wolves don't even eat over the past 10-15 years.
But thats just based on "anecdotal" evidence.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Boy, is that a Yuppie article! I think we need to drag some of the Urban tree huggers out on wilderness hunts, and push them between the hunters and the Grizzleys to save the hunters. Let them try to commune with the charging bears with their pepper sprays. Yes, Bear Skulls have Heavy bones, in some places. But not surrounding the nose cavity, or the back of the eye sockets. Or the roof of the mouth.

Visit a Natural History museum to see these skulls, and compare then to the shape and thickness of Black Bear, and to a lesser and more common extent, to the skulls of Raccoons and Opossum. All three animals share, in common with Humans, a plantar, rounded heel, "U-shaped" rear foot shape and impression. Bears, Raccoons, and Opossum have 5 toes with claws showing on all four feet. If you can see raccoon tracks, and opossum tracks, you will have NO PROBLEM seeing Bear tracks. :hmm:

May I suggest a different approach?? If you are hunting in BEAR country, YOU HAVE TO KEEP an eye on the ground to see fresh tracks and sign. That also means that you have to know the difference between fresh tracks and old ones.

Both should concern you, as bears will often avoid places where humans are likely to be. If they are around, there is a good reason, and its never because they intend to greet you with a Brass Band! :idunno: :rotf: :shocked2:

If you find Fresh( Sharp edges, clear bottoms to the impressions- similar to what kind of track you can leave walking next to the bear track on the same ground) sign or tracks, back out of the area, and LEAVE. Make lots of noise. The Bears already know you are there. The Noise tells them you are leaving and how fast you are leaving.

If you find OLD tracks( well worn edges, debris blown or washed into the impressions, etc.) Its certainly an indication that you are within the home range of a bear, and the tracks will give you the means to accurately estimate its size. Its a judgment call. Bear cover very large areas when hunting meals, and the old tracks you find may be on the outer fringe of its home range.

Old tracks should put you on full alert to be checking for fresher tracks in the area, to use your nose to smell rotting meat from a kill site, to move quietly but to stop often and look around for sign( rubs, claw marks on trees, torn up tree bark, etc.) that indicate that a bear is in the immediate area. LEAVE, if you find such fresh indicators.

Listen for alarm calls from crows, and other scavengers, who give all Notice when bear is in the area. The Scavengers are not going to challenge a bear, but that doesn't keep them from giving it a piece of their mind! LISTEN FOR IT.

Look for vultures, and other scavengers circling overhead. The birds will tell you where a kill sight is, and the closer you are to such a sight, the closer you are likely to be to a bear, feeding on the kill. I consider such bird activity as an " Early Warning System", if YOU PAY ATTENTION.

Its hardly likely that any ELK is going to stay around an area that has a Grizzley bear working in it. You are wasting your time hunting in any area where an animal one rung HIGHER on the FOOD CHAIN than you is already there. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

I have never had a close encounter with a live Gbear. I was in a camper when this was taken at the farm in AK. http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/AKbears1lr.jpg
they used to come by several times a week being "dump bears" from the Delt Jct dump. So it was a good idea to be aware when stepping outside at night or in the AM.
They like to look in widows and such too and will enter houses or cabins even when occupied.
But know some people who have gotten too close a few times and know a researcher who knows bears extremely well and has 2 books on Gbears and their behavior. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=71e_1191606630
Gives a pretty good idea of the time frame of a 20-30 yard bear charge. Sometimes its much less since the bear may approach within feet before the human or the bear is aware of the other.
If you watch the video the guide got his big Smith out when he saw the cubs. He KNEW trouble was on the way. He was knowledgeable and cool under pressure.
He turned the bear without killing it. This is OK but with a ML you only have one shot and it cannot be wasted.
Pepper spray is problematical from reports. Gotta have the bear coming up wind, gotta have it IN YOUR HAND, which is a problem in itself. Then you risk pepper spraying yourself, then there is a very real possibility IT WON'T WORK. Due to many factors. Note the guide in the video did not use pepper spray
I will not carry bear spray. I carry a gun. If the bear is going to cripple me for life or kill me I want at least one bullet hole in the bear so someone will know which one it was.
This keeps me from having to decide at some high stress moment "should I get out the pepper spray or should I shoot". I shoot when the situation requires self-defense. I have had a plan for this for decades because I frequent bear country, almost always alone and finding fresh tracks is not unexpected. Yeah the plan never works since its impossible to plan for everything. But the mind set is still there and this is important as well.
Lewis and Clark were amazed at how tough the bears they encountered on the great plains were. But note that none of the bears they shot with their 50 or 54 caliber RB rifles killed or mauled any of the party. They got chased at times, but apparently the 50-54 caliber ball was well enough placed to sufficiently hurt the bear so that it could not overtake and kill or injure the shooter. Bears are VERY fast and can reach full speed in a very short time since they are very powerful for their weight, outrunning one is simply impossible if the bear is not seriously injured. They can overtake and kill running horses with a paw strike if they can get fairly close, 50 yards or so.
There is no time to plan, there is no time to climb a tree it will occur in SECONDS in most cases. Videos of bears and accounts from people I know point out that the speed is simply jaw dropping.
You must have a plan.
One that works probably as well or better than pepper spray in SOME instances is to make yourself look as tall as possible. This from Doug Peacock who made close encounters with a Gbear his life's work and he is still doing it. A conversation with him is very enlightening since he has had to stand firm and face down bears in the course of his work.
BUT Peacock is EXTREMELY woods savvy. He knows not to get too close. He knows that an aroused bear or a bear that hates people is different than taking pictures and notes unseen from 200 yards away.
If you startle a bear, the bear or you approach too close, the bear is guarding a kill or cubs, the "problem" bear is still upset over someone darting/trapping it and hauling it to your location to be dumped on an unsuspecting public it can be very very bad.
So its best to carry a 4"-5" DA revolver of at least 44 mag with hard cast bullets for back up in case the bear gets you down. It may be of no use but it HAS saved people from mauling or further mauling and will continue to do so.

The only other alternative is to hope playing dead will work, but the bear may watch you for long periods to make SURE you are dead and if you move will return to finish the job. Hard to lay still for long periods after being mauled, or so I have read.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I think it's all about having a good, heavy hunting type load in the gun and then providing good shot placement. Properly adjusted, as many know, the flinter is a good piece of equipment and can provide reliable service. Undoubtedly this it would be scary, and you'd need to really be locked in to get the proper shot off, but it seems to me it could be done. Perhaps with adrenaline and that "slow motion" type effect people can get under pressure, it could be done.

I have been in the slow motion thing being carried along by pressure wave and/or other violent action and lots of things can go though your mind in a second.
I have been in a situation where my brain was screaming I was going to die and my body had no time to make the slightest reaction until it was too late. The brain works at light speed, the muscles do not.

Dan

 

[Ray-Vigo]

That depends on the level of experience and handling. An experienced mountain guide or bear hunter could probably grab, shoulder and fire his weapon very, very quickly, and probably fairly accurately. Stories from the Revolution and the Civil War recall such a mix "under fire"-- that some of the best troops could load, fire and hit enemies very effectively under the most intense conditions, while green troops would fumble, misfire, forget to cap a rifle-musket, etc.

As for the article talking about projectiles-- yes a bullet isn't big compared to a large bear, but the essence is not the size of the bullet when it leaves the gun so much as where the impact is, and the behavior of the bullet. A lead shot from a flinter will expand and deform, causing large amount of trauma. I would reckon that it would do that more so than many modern pistol or rifle rounds commonly carried. A round like that, well placed ought to do the trick. A missed shot is serious trouble.

If I had to pick a single flint weapon at very close range to deal with a bear, it would be a Brown Bess with a bayonet attached. If this is truly a dead-on charge at close range, the smoothbore won't be much less accurate than a rifle, and the large size of the Bess ball could do some serious damage. And if all else fails, you can try to *** him in the vitals or face with the bayonet, at least to deter him off.

 

[Zoar]

Oh mercy, it was here all along. The answer to the thread's question:

Big Bore Blunderbuss. 8 or even 4 gauge.

It's a flintlock! Can you imagine 24 or 30 or so round balls with some BB's and some #6 pellets, all in a thunder cloud immersing that snout of that charging G bear?

Hey, maybe we can merge the Blunderbuss Thread with the Will A Flintlock Stop A Bear Thread!? :wink:

If you blow most of his face off there won't me much left to eat you with and he sure as hell will be blinded in both eyes, and there's more than a fair chance that one of those RB's knocked into the brain or even spinal column via that open mouth of his. Bingo. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Tunnel Vision, Auditory Exclusion, and slow motion recall, cotton mouth, etc., are just some of the symptoms that compose Tachy-Psych Syndrome. Practice putting yourself into a situation that causes you to fear for your life, or others, is the way to learn how to deal with that. You can learn to overcome fear and move amazingly fast. When I studied Self Defenses tactics with John Farnam, back in 1982, we practiced these stressful situations and learned to overcome them. You might find a copy of his book, Stressfire, on the net, and read it. I am sure you will find several ideas for exercises to teach you to function under those kinds of stress. Courage can be taught, and it can be learned.

I am one of those guys who runs towards the fire, explosions, gunfire, etc. rather than away from it. I always have. I believe I am afraid to live with myself if I don't try to stop the harm, and aid the injured. I have been doing these kinds of things all my life, and long before I took John's class.