Would this rifle be ok for a awi impression?

[Brokennock]

Perhaps, but there is evidence of plain guns, shimmel guns as they were called where I live, usually in smoothbore. Few farmers afforded the expensive examples, but older smoothbore guns fit the bill for general protection of homestead and livestock.
I've seen very simple examples, quite unadorned, that have a charm to me that later rifles (bedecked in brass and carvings) just don't hold. As one gunsmith told me, "We have examples of fancy rifles because they were expensive and well cared for, we have parts of shimmels because they were worked to death." Could be true, could just be anecdote. Sort of like people preserving a muscle car but not a Ford Pinto.
As to the OP, mounting a forward screw for the lock would make it appear more historically accurate. Butt plate would be fine but perhaps not necessary.

For what time period? And, how many compared to those properly built? Were they built this way or were they make do restockings of gun parts from a broken stock?

We have examples of fancy rifles because they were expensive and well cared for, we have parts of shimmels because they were worked to death

I'm sorry, but this still sounds like justification of what someone wants more than evidence based conclusion.
"I want to have/carry/make, a cheapest, easiest, most simple gun I can. What can I leave off, and how can I justify it?"
Then we apply our modern logic and tell ourselves only nice guns survived because only wealthy people had then and didn't really use them, and of course those that did were to ignorant and slovenly to take care of their tools.

 

[tenngun]

Well thats why im asking from what I gather and research it would be fsirly correct other than the one lock screw and no buttplate.

Fairly correct
Going to an event you will see folks in single person or family tents. Military would be several guys to a tent, if it’s militia they would meet for drill and not be out over night, if they are out then wives are back home or in a followers camp
You will see the pleasant glow of candle lantern all through camp, pretty much rare except for officers then
And where would we be without camp hooters?
At best there might be a trench and a stench, and it seems colonials were sloppy with latrines
Should you just be a farmer coming to fair or town to buy supplies one had a cart or a wagon and slept under it.
So we never quit get it right.
So we see rules to give an air of the eighteenth century, and meet twentyfirst century codes and even taste.
I go alone so I can be rougher, but if you pack a woman along allowances have to be made. If you pack children even more so
As pointed out they may have made e expensive ‘barn guns’ but the no buttplate very plain thing seems to be more post WBTS in Appalachia.
They may go back to that time but we can’t show it.
Plain guns were made, but their plainness might be a trigger that pivots on wood not a plate, trigger guard proud on the wood, round toe white out a tow plate, maybe a missing entry thimble
No one is going to pho pho your gun.
Better would be to add a butt, and a side plate. You could make a plane wood screw on the side plate since passing a hole might interfere with your ramrod.
But you don’t have to do it tomorrow as except in very specific cases it wouldn’t be rejected at an event.

 

[tenngun]

But standards mean judgment and judgment is now a bad thing.......
At least to those who now refer to anyone espousing something they don't like as a Nazi. Though they are the 1st ones to want to erase or ignore any reminders of the horrors that real Nazis committed and rewrite history in general.

So folks, remember, no standards and no judgements... When you head to the new gender neutral F&I event, go ahead and wear polyester pink and neon green skirt and a toga for a hunting shirt, be sure to carry a long full stalk sunflower instead of a longrifle because guns are bad (this judgements is allowable), and find an environmentally responsible substitute for a powder horn (can't hurt that cow or bull), accessorize with a sustainable hemp fabric "shot pouch."
Unfortunately no short ball starter is allowed. Not for lack of historical correctness, but the act of forcing it into the muzzle symbolizes rape and male domination.




I can't stand our current "society"
We make me sick.

Oh my

 

[Brokennock]

Oh my

Sorry, sometimes I boil over.

 

[smo]

In response too the OP, as pointed out unless you’re going to a juried event… No one cares..

Your gun will do, several factory built guns are often seen at un juried events.

I think tenngun maybe right on the Appalachia guns being built without butt plates, side plates and other adorning features..

In the South , it is my understanding materials were not as readily available as in the Northern States at the time of the WBTS… However I’m not sure this was this case prior too the AWI..

I can see where skipping inletting a butt or side plate would be more time efficient during building a gun.. but is a chipped toe on the stock worth it?
IMHO. …. No one knows for sure..

 

[Md80runway23]

This logic may not be false. I dont know much about this time period thats why im here to learn. I do however collect civil war rifles and have for many years. I can tell you that the early war rifles ex. 1861,1862 springfields are much less common than the 63, 64 models. Why? They were used up early on. Just based on seeing what those done in the 1860s to older guns to put into practice in the ACW, I can see why one could make the asumption they used what they had in the revolution as well.

 

[tenngun]

For what time period? And, how many compared to those properly built? Were they built this way or were they make do restockings of gun parts from a broken stock?

I'm sorry, but this still sounds like justification of what someone wants more than evidence based conclusion.
"I want to have/carry/make, a cheapest, easiest, most simple gun I can. What can I leave off, and how can I justify it?"
Then we apply our modern logic and tell ourselves only nice guns survived because only wealthy people had then and didn't really use them, and of course those that did were to ignorant and slovenly to take care of their tools.

The Shakers would support their church by making plain sturdy and very fine furniture. This became very popular and a lot of makers copied it. During Victorian times there was an explosion in fancy for just decoration, after that the craftsman became popular. Plain, well done, simplistic.
Today we look on this and think of plain Jane as a working man’s piece. Rugged and tough, John Wayne.
However during the eighteenth century we don’t see that.
Log cabins with dirt floors, so romantic. But in the past they just served until a brick or proper post and beam could be made.
Merchant ships put to sea with gingerbread on the transom and inner pillars carved in to tulip shapes, a figure head at the bow and cats faces carved on the beams that held the anchor ( called cat heads, and securing the anchor was to cat it)
The bess, Charlie, Potsdam and other military guns sported molding that served only to make the piece pretty. Ever shop keeper had a fancy sign painted to hang over his shop. Even plain tin pots had fancy ears to hold the bail. From working man to gentleman to frontiersman clothing wasn’t just about protection but ran to cuts and style and well made
From barrels to boxes decoration was added.
Plain Jane was dressed for the ball in the eighteenth century

 

[tenngun]

This logic may not be false. I dont know much about this time period thats why im here to learn. I do however collect civil war rifles and have for many years. I can tell you that the early war rifles ex. 1861,1862 springfields are much less common than the 63, 64 models. Why? They were used up early on. Just based on seeing what those done in the 1860s to older guns to put into practice in the ACW, I can see why one could make the asumption they used what they had in the revolution as well.

Yes indeed. And we had the great metal drives of the wars and God Knows how much ‘old junk’ was lost. Not to mention plain old repurposing. I have a friend who found an old half octagon double wedding band barrel rusting on a barbed wire fence were it had been used as the end part of a gate
We had a population of two million whites during the revolution. One gun for every four people would be five hundred thousand guns. We sure don’t have that many colonial guns around today
However when we have several pieces that all share similar features we have to assume they were typical. From cooking pot to gun to portmanteau to shoes, we have to assume a base line, and if we want to be as accurate as we can with in the limits of our time and pocket book and avalible materials we need go with typical, or at least demonstrable.

 

[Rató:rats]

first two are of a Snaphaunce without a buttplate

Third is a modern copy of an original “squirrel rifle” without a butt plate butt it does have some kind of toe plate which is wise.

last is an original Derringer trade rifle without a butt plate

in Neumanns Collectors Illustrated of the American Revolution there are some original club butts and Hudson Valley Fowler’s without butt plates
They were floating around. Commonality is all conjecture

 

[Grenadier1758]

After talking with a fellow member on this forum I believe we have struck a deal on this beautiful rifle. Just a quick question I know this rifle is pennsyvlania styled with an early germaic lock. Would this be ok for my AWI militia impression? Thanks

Most reenactment units will offer a lot of leeway to a new reenactment participant. Your smoothbore is close enough to the architecture of the AWI that you should be able to participate at the impression of a member of the local militia.

Specifically the question of suitability should be asked of the militia unit that you will be participating as a member. Many units have a entry period that will allow you to get your equipment to best fit with the unit's desired presentation.

I would also be looking through Grinslade's "The Flintlock Fowler" to see how your fowling gun compares to the period and locale.

In the British Genadier F&I unit that I participate, we have a loose entry period of a year or more to get our equipment up to standard. For some, that means serving on the cannon crew with simple clothing requirements and minimal period gear and getting the correct long land pattern King's Musket and regimental uniform can wait. Some members use a short land pattern Musket of the AWI that is basically unnoticed and allowed. After all the Musket is in the intent of the F&I War. My Musket is of a pattern that was obsolete and out of service during the F&I deployment of my historical unit. We have allowed associated "spies" and scouts to participate as armed civilians with us to give them welcome to the reenactment hobby.

So much will depend upon the requirements of the militia you want to join.

 

[Md80runway23]

Thanks for the advice. Our uinit is western NC frontier milita. The only requirement is a full stock fowler. Just trying to be as correct as I personally can be.

 

[Md80runway23]

Heres one I found interesting. This rifle was supposedly present at the battle of lings mountain. It is said not to have a butt plate.
http://ashevilleandbuncombecounty.blogspot.com/2019/07/daniel-smiths-long-tom.html

 

[smoothshooter]

Perhaps, but there is evidence of plain guns, shimmel guns as they were called where I live, usually in smoothbore. Few farmers afforded the expensive examples, but older smoothbore guns fit the bill for general protection of homestead and livestock.
I've seen very simple examples, quite unadorned, that have a charm to me that later rifles (bedecked in brass and carvings) just don't hold. As one gunsmith told me, "We have examples of fancy rifles because they were expensive and well cared for, we have parts of shimmels because they were worked to death." Could be true, could just be anecdote. Sort of like people preserving a muscle car but not a Ford Pinto.
As to the OP, mounting a forward screw for the lock would make it appear more historically accurate. Butt plate would be fine but perhaps not necessary.

Not having a butt plate almost guarantees chipped or cracked wood. I doubt if that that possibility was lost on the gunsmiths in the old days. There are better areas to cut corners on when building a long gun.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

I don't disagree that lacking a butt plate isn't preferable, but as the examples above showed, such guns existed.
Each of mine has a butt plate, I prefer having one, but just because I like it doesn't mean all guns had to have them.

 

[Brokennock]

I don't disagree that lacking a butt plate isn't preferable, but as the examples above showed, such guns existed.
Each of mine has a butt plate, I prefer having one, but just because I like it doesn't mean all guns had to have them.

I don't think anyone ever said what we call poorboy or barn guns never existed. But, there is no reason to believe they were even remotely common. Nor is there any reason to believe that the ones we have evidence of were originally built that way, could have been, but also could have been a restock by someone without the talent to inlet the buttplate or entry thimble. I often read of these two things being some builders biggest intletting difficulty.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks for the advice. Our uinit is western NC frontier milita. The only requirement is a full stock fowler. Just trying to be as correct as I personally can be.

So no matter what WE ALL WRITE... the bottom line is that NONE OF US can give you the fully correct answer, because you have a group to work with and it is their standards that you need to meet, even if they turn out to disagree with us. So check with them. They can give you the right answer.

LD

 

[Md80runway23]

Thier answer is any full stock flintlock.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Thier answer is any full stock flintlock.

I'd say your good-to-go!

 

[FlinterNick]

I think you’re ok for AWI impression, if it were me there are two details I would want to change which are relatively easy. 1. The stock color should be darker, and 2. most rev war guns should be showing two side lock screws with some type of side plate. The second one you may or may not be able to do depending on where the ramrod ends, but I would add some type of side plate.

 

[hopping]

Thanks for the advice. Our uinit is western NC frontier milita. The only requirement is a full stock fowler. Just trying to be as correct as I personally can be.

For 18th century Western NC living history remember that the frontiersmen came from all over and usually brought their firelocks with them. There would have been no one style. The Washington County Militia unit and the OVTA in your area are not overly critical about your firelock. It must be safe and reliable when firing a volley. They both have a wide assortment from Pedersoli rifles to the Bess and Charleville musket reproductions to custom made fancy reproductions. They are more critical of your clothing than your firelock. I don’t mean hand stitched critical, I mean can the audience tell what you are from 15 feet away. Modern glasses, wristwatches, Levi jeans are not good. The frontiersmen came from all over and their clothes showed it. No one style firelock and no one style outfit.

If you want to understand what the Rev War era rifles that were made in NC really were, get William Ivey’s book “North Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765 – 1865”. The book has over a hundred color illustrations of the real thing and the variety is amazing. The styles changed almost by decade as more people flowed into NC. The ‘Appalachian School’ rifles are mostly one lock bolt, no patch box, no butt plate and plain styling. The “Catawba School” (Appalachian foothills) firelocks had many one lock bolt and no butt plate. There were nine ‘schools’ of gunsmiths in NC. Each were building what the customer wanted. Even the ‘Bear Creek School” in south eastern NC made firelocks with one lock bolt and no butt plate. People bought what they could afford and the gunsmiths made firelocks for every taste and wallet.

Don’t worry about any one person’s opinion, do some primary source research and talk to your unit. All units want new members and will encourage you. Join the Overmountain Victory Trail Association (ovta.org) for $15 and come to our Annual Meeting at 10 am on January 22nd at the Rocky Mount State Historic Site, 200 Hyder Hill Rd, Piney Flats, TN 37686.