Would you hunt turkeys with these patterns?

[jrhills]

Powder is Pyrodex - 75 grains. Shot is #4 7/8 oz. Shotgun is Pedersoli 20 ga. Don't know the chokes - gun is from the mid 70s - left barrel noticeably more choked than the right. Suggestions on how to improve for turkey hunting appreciated.

Thanks for any advice. Check out the pix.
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jeff_hills/assets/06ffea479412431f9e8e943faec57cc1

Jeff Hills

 

[jrhills]

I guess I should add that I was using the same white cardboard "overshot" wads over both the powder and the shot. I thought the patterns - both at about 25 yards - were way bigger than I would have expected.
http://www.photoshop.com/users/jeff_hills/assets/06ffea479412431f9e8e943faec57cc1

JRH

 

[smokepole tc]

just my two cents i have killed 8 toms with my pedersoli 8 shots 8 birds always used left barrel never had to use second shot farthest was 35yds. most were 10 to 15 yds. used 75gr. 3f goex #5 shot loaded powder cut a 1/2 in. fiber in half hallf over powder half over shot retired her this year and had a 62 smoothie flinter made pa. season started saturday hopefully my luck will continue GOOD LUCK andGOOD HUNTING !!!!

 

[lonehorseman]

Flush the Pyrodex. Get some real "black powder". I think you will be please with the results.

 

[roundball]

Suggestions on how to improve for turkey hunting appreciated.

You didn't mention the yardage...but I personally wouldn't take a shot at a turkey with that pattern at whatever that yardage is. In terms of suggestions, you have got to use a larger shot charge.
7/8oz #4s won't get it done reliably unless you're going to hold your fire until you get one close, 10-12yds.

One of the few old sayings that actually seem to have merit from "the old days" is this:
"Little powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"
Meaning, to use a powder measure to measure both powder and shot...and in a ratio of more shot to powder.

(this all assumes good quality firearms in well maintained good condition, etc, of course)
One example of a proven .20ga muzzleloader turkey load good for 25yds is:
70 grain powder measure of 3F (or 80grn measure of 2F)
1/4" to 1/2" amount of OP wad(s)
120grn powder measure of #5s (1+5.8oz) or 6s
1 (or 2) OS cards
============================================
Here are results from 60grns powder & 100grns of lead at 25yds with a small 3.5" tuna cans, shot with a .54cal/.28ga cylinder bore.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Cut the powder back. 75 gr with only 7/8oz is likely blowing the patterns. I use 70 gr with 1-1/8 oz in my 16 gauge.

From Kit Ravenshear (and long before him)

More powder,
Less lead.
Up close,
Wide spread.

Less powder,
More lead.
Shoots far,
Kills dead.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I guess I should add that I was using the same white cardboard "overshot" wads over both the powder and the shot. I thought the patterns - both at about 25 yards - were way bigger than I would have expected.

How many over-shot cards are you using on the powder? Most folks with guns having good bores report using either 2 or 3, whether using a cushion on top or not. My 16ga has rough bores and I need at least 3 o/s cards under a 1/4" cushion wad to get an adequate seal, and I go to 4 with heavy loads. This is using the evidence from burn streaks on recovered paper shot protectors to indicate blow-by.

And further on the point Stumpkiller raised, the traditional starting load for unchoked guns was equal volumes of powder & shot, which for 7/8oz of shot would be 2.1/4dr or 62gr. Reducing the powder tends to tighten the pattern; increasing powder tends to open it until it starts blowing the pattern. Back in the day, a common "optimum" recommended for balancing pattern and velocity was 1/3 more shot than powder by volume, or a ratio of 4:3, which for 7/8oz of shot would be about 1.3/4dr or 48gr. This all changed when chokes came in, as the dynamics of a shot charge going through a choke are quite different, and the most-often recommended loads went up to equal-volume or somewhat higher.

I've noticed that a fair proportion of the turkey loads mentioned on this forum are around 1/2 more shot, or a ratio of 3:2 by volume. This is a rather low-velocity load and relies on heavier pellets (sometimes #6, often #5 or #4) for penetration. Remember, though, that these are generalities, and you have to find what works for you in your gun with your components. Good luck with your load development.

Regards,
Joel

p.s. Powder charges were traditionally given in avoirdupois drams (1/16oz or 27.34gr) and usually only to a precision of 1/4dr (6.84gr), except for small pistol charges which went to 1/8dr.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Some of the guys have given you potential fixes for your pattern but I would especially agree with Roundball that I would never hunt turkeys with that load, regardless of what the range is. Not to be argumentative or to start something but I often see posts on this board congratulating someone for a great pattern that I still think is awfully thin. Hitting a turkey in the head simply isn't good enough, you have to hit them in the spinal column or the brain and then you still have to have enough energy to penetrate those areas. Furthermore, getting a hit or three into those areas on paper isn't the same as hitting those areas when you're afield, nervous and the bird may be moving. I would think 6-8 BBs in the brain or spinal column would be minimum and I feel a whole lot better with more than that.

Best of luck to you, I hope you find a great pattern for the gun.

 

[jrhills]

My thanks to you all for the suggestions. You've given me some great starting points for making my powder/shot/wad combo more effective. I'll try the 4/3 ratio ... and I've just been using one or two cardboard overshot wads. I'll try 4.

Turkey season starts tomorrow.

 

[majg1234]

not dense enough for thunder chicken to be reliably kilt!!! that said do some work with your loads good suggestions here to start with .My SB 62 flinter killed a bird @ 25 yrds load was 1 7/8 oz #5 rolled in 3 sheets of news print tied with dental floss on powder end just twisted on bore end with an overshot card ,one wool felt wad over powder ,80gr Ffg Goex work with it and you'll get good patterns don't forget the penetration needed ....a steel can of some nature witll give you an Idea if the load will work.(RB's Tuna can is an example) good luck :thumbsup:

 

[hanshi]

No. :shake:

 

[Dave K]

Like the others said, no,I would still work with load development. #4's are a good pellet, but I also think you need more pellet population. Personally, I am not fond of 7 1/2's for a turkey, but 6's or 5's are good. Personally, I use 6's. in my 20ga. I am using 70gr. of Schuetzen 2 F black powder and 1 oz. of the 6's. This is a cylinder bored gun. Yes, it is trial an error before you get a pattern you can use with confidence every time you pull the trigger. My gun likes no cushion at all, to get the tightest patterns. I use one over powder card, that of course the shot and one over shot card. Test to see what your gun likes. If you feel you are still getting a thin pattern, back the powder off a little, or increase the shot by another 1/8 of an oz. and test again. If you feel you reached a good pattern, but are concerned with the power, use the tuna can like Round Ball showed or any really strong can, like even a coffee can. If your shot blows through that, at the max. range you are hunting at, it will break bones on a turkey.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My thanks to you all for the suggestions. You've given me some great starting points for making my powder/shot/wad combo more effective. I'll try the 4/3 ratio ... and I've just been using one or two cardboard overshot wads. I'll try 4.

Turkey season starts tomorrow.

It has been my experience the less mass you have in front of the shot the better the pattern. I use one 1/32" thick card - with a 1/16" hole drilled slightly off center (to allow air to escape when seating it). I use a waxed 1/2" fiber wad above a 1/8" over powder card below the shot and that seals the charge in well enough.

I have been told cork overshot cards are best of all, but have yet to try that.

 

[Zoar]

A) I found my patterns tightened up when I used a cork wad UNDER the load.

B) I agree you need an ounce or more of shot and I would go to 5 or 6's, (not enough population with #4's). I actually like 7 1/2's because of the very high pellet count of an ounce of it compared to an ounce of #4's but that is me. Most say 7 1/2's won't kill turkey. I say it will.

C) I use a paper tube to contain my shot. Taped. It seems to help make the pattern tighter.

D) Strong over-shot card is a must.

 

[Ron LaClair]

PYRODEX! :td:

 

[Zoar]

OH yes i forgot to add my addition to the chorus:

Ditch the Pyrodex!

Go with real Black Powder!

 

[roundball]

Let's not lean on him too hard...
:grin:
He's got a lot on his plate at the moment trying to get ready for turkey opener...if he's already got Pyrodex, it'll do just fine...

 

[Zoar]

Round--Okay Okay.

But you know how we (most of us) feel about REAL BLACK POWDER!!!!

Amen.

:thumbsup: :grin:

 

[roundball]

Round--Okay Okay.

But you know how we (most of us) feel about REAL BLACK POWDER!!!!

Amen.

:thumbsup: :grin:

I know...I used Pyrodex RS in caplocks for years then after switching to Flintlocks and Goex, I really came to appreciate blackpowder...he's getting his SxS caplock dialed in right now...may try BP one day himself.
:thumbsup:

 

[jrhills]

Follow-up questions:

What's wrong with Pyrodex? I do have a couple of cans of GOEX FFg and can easily change back.

Where do I find cork wads? Could not find them at Track of the Wolf.

I have a wonderful old embossed leather (bird dogs and other detail) shot bag for my shot dispenser. The metal top part is OK - the leather is threatening to come apart at the seam. Is it possible to buy a new leather or metal shot container that would be threaded to fit the metal dispenser?

I own a lifetime supply of #4 and #7.5 shot. Does the 7.5 have enough mass to penetrate?

My thanks again to all of you for the suggestions.