Wound bakllistic of ML-bullets?

[PreglerD]

Hello colleges,

as you know I have started to establish ML-hunting in Germany. There are a few critical persons who have doubts about the wound ballistics of Ml-bullets. They say a ML-Bullet won't kill a deer animalfriendly in comparison to a modern cartridge, when you know what I mean. So while I have no experience yet, I need yours to give a response to those critic.They even said a ML would have not enough accuracy for successful hunting.

 

[bramble]

Kirrmeister, see topic 192684 for accounts of PRB usage in the real world
bramble

 

[Stumpkiller]

Inform them there is no friendly way to kill a deer, or any animal. A slow neurotoxin introduced into their food that knocks them unconscious before suffocating them perhaps? Hunting is a violent blood sport and death is harsh and nasty. That's the way it's been for the last 800 million years or so.

Ever watched them bleed and eventually kill chickens in a poultry processing plant?

Lobsters and clams we boil alive.

Becoming something else's food is never pleasant for the victim. Sorry. That's death.

I've shot and killed deer with a 7.62 X 54R that has about 2,500 ft lbs at range, a 12 gauge slug that has 1,800 ft lbs and round balls at 1,000 to 1,400 ft lbs, and an arrow with 45 ft lbs. Takes the deer about seven to ten seconds to expire in all cases if the shot is well placed in the chest.

 

[PreglerD]

Hi stumpkiller,

I have the same opinion but the criticcal persons are hunter not Greens or violent nature clubbers.
They are not understanding why it is necessary to hunt with ML in a time where modern rifles available.
It is very dificult here, because these persons doesn't use facts. They argue with Tales and rumors.

 

[stinger]

Here is a picture that you can show all the doubters that muzzleloaders are lethel and accurate for hunting.

This deer was taken with a 50 cal handgun (Kahnke).

Has a 10 1/2" barrel.
Load used was 80gr of Triple Seven under a 300 grain Precision Extreme. Deer was 50 yds out. One shot kill.

I've taken 7 deer with handgun so far. Hope to add another 1 or 2 this year.

PS: all seven deer taken were one shot kills

 

[PreglerD]

Pics from the hit and the wounds would be very interesting.

 

[bob1961]

Ever watched them bleed and eventually kill chickens in a poultry processing plant?

i worked fer a slaughter house fer bout 4 hours till lunch one day....the truck gets there and they bring in the cows through gates just wide enough fer them to walk through to the begining of the slaughter line....then a guy with a .22 pistol shooting blanks pops the blank to the cows temple and knocks the cow out....then the next guy in line uses chains around the cows front feet to lift the cow high enough to dress it out while it's still alive to dump it's entrails in a hopper to go to a dumpster....then it's stomach, heart while still pumping a bit after it's out of the cow and liver goes to it's station to process....i left at lunch time and never went back after lunch didn't even tell them i quit....i didn't even go back the next payday to pick up my 4 hour paycheck at 4.00 an hour....from live cow to quartered hunks of meat in 5 minutes a cow.... :shocked2: .............bob

 

[longcruise]

At first I ddin't understand your "animalfriendly" term but now realize that they are suggesting that the ML may not be humane or adequate.

You have an uphill battle to convince them. Between myself and others here we can provide story upon story of anecdotal evidence supporting the effectiveness of ml guns for hunting, but that type of evidence is not always as persuasive as we might like it to be.

Here in the states where we have been killing big game with ml guns for many years, there are still skeptics who remain unconvinced.

Your best allies may be those who stand to profit from ml hunting!

 

[PreglerD]

I didn't have the right word so i used animalfriendly. It is certainly not very friendly for the animal when shooting at it, but when it is killed fast so it is animalfriendly, in German: "waidgerecht" oder tierschutzgerecht".
I want to report a bit more about the critics in GE:

Most of them don't want to believe that a ML is able to kill a deer in the same way and as fast as a smokeless powder rifle. They think a ML-bullet (ball or conical) is to slow, doesn't expand, has to less energy.....
Further more they don't know the accuracy of ML. They have the opinion that it is impossible to hit a target at a range of more than 20 m.
They say BP will become wet when loading it in the morning before hunting and so there will be less or no ignition.They say:"How will you hit the deer without scope?"
And at least they can't understand the why of ML-hunting. They say it is a step in the past.

 

[romeoh]

Uphill-battle is a good expression for what kirrmeister is trying to start in germany. I share his opinion and already started a ML-hunting discussion in a german weapon-forum in the ML-section. There were many posts from people normaly writing in the hunting-section. All trying to say one thing: it´s a no-go! :nono: Trying to proof it with various arguments. By reading the posts I sometimes came to the opinion that in a few pc-monitors all over germany stuck already huntnig-knifes...
One of the arguments was of course the effectivness of ML. Book-tips, pictures, etc. about ML-wound-ballistic surely could help kirrmeister.
So guys: send him ammo for his uphill-battle!

@kirrmeister:
One argument for you:
You sure remember the problem-bär-discussion in germany. The bears and wolves disappeard in germany in the ML-era! Most of the population even in flintlock-era. I wonder if most of them got shot or died after catching a cold :hmm:

And try - if you haven´t got it yet - to find a book: "Die JagdFeuerWaffen" written 1869 by Adolf Zimmer. There was a reprint in the end of the 1980´s in the GDR. Those books you can find used from time to time.
The author lived in germany in a period where ML and cartridge-weapons were both used for hunting.
I´ve already posted one page showing the platzkugel-bulletmould. The author promises a big outgoing wound and even big game stopping immediatly.

And maybe you could try to get one of these:[url] http://www.thebullettesttube.com/[/url]
Then start shooting and making pictures :thumbsup:

romeoh

 

[PreglerD]

Tommorrow I start testing muzzle velocity of my .54 ML with minie bullets. With this data I could calculate the muzzle-energy. Did you know where I can find a formula for 100 meter energy and velo?

Many thanks romeoh and all forum members, only together we can manage the change in mind of German hunters because from the point of law it is absolutely legal.

 

[romeoh]

Tommorrow I start testing muzzle velocity of my .54 ML with minie bullets. With this data I could calculate the muzzle-energy. Did you know where I can find a formula for 100 meter energy and velo?

Try this:[url] http://www.schuetzenverein-eisenach.de/Ballistik2.htm[/url]
And a good thing would be also combining it with Quickload. QL has a ML-part in it´s software. Brings you the speed by saying the program bullet and weight, lenght of the barrel and charge of powder.
Is the D..p..@aol.. still correct?

 

[PreglerD]

No, send it to BPOL-office, [email protected].

 

[hawkeye1755]

And a good thing would be also combining it with Quickload. QL has a ML-part in it´s software. Brings you the speed by saying the program bullet and weight, lenght of the barrel and charge of powder.
Is the D..p..@aol.. still correct?

QL didn't have dates with Swiss BP.It have dates for Goex, Elephant, Pyrodex.The only Swiss is Swiss 1.5.
I wait for an update.But i must say i did take quit long for that update.
:hatsoff:

 

[PreglerD]

Wouldn't it work with data of GOEX FFFg, it' s the same a Ch 2.

 

[hawkeye1755]

Wouldn't it work with data of GOEX FFFg, it' s the same a Ch 2.

Swiss 2 burns faster and cleaner.Reduce your load 10%-15%.
Hunting with a muzzleloader in Germany,that's the only reason for me to make the 'Jagdschein'.
In my youth i was hunting with my grandfather.
The only think most of them are talking was about scopes and all the mordern knick-knacks.When i asked someone about a Pennsylvania or Jaeger Rifle, he only say: Forget it.No penetrating power. :shocked2:
I asked him how the old longhunters are killing the deers and bears.
No chance for a discussion.You must know at that time i was 15.All the old hunters looks at me in the way:What did you know about hunting?
:hatsoff:

 

[hawkeye1755]

Kirrmeister and romeoh , as police officers didn't you have to work? :hmm:
You know,hunting the bad guy's and so on :haha:
:hatsoff:

 

[PreglerD]

You are rihgt. German hunters think only hunting with up to date and modern rifles is waidgerecht. You are not well sawn even when you use a modern rifle without a scope or a lever action, semi automatic rifle, pump gun. Their lobby wouldn't acccept nothing new with their missused term of Waidgerechtigkeit.

 

[hawkeye1755]

Their lobby wouldn't acccept nothing new with their missused term of Waidgerechtigkeit.

Yip, and they have a big lobby.But i think it's time for a revolution. :shocked2:
We have a lot of Toby's here in Germany :grin:
Vote For Traditional Hunting Season in Germany.
:hatsoff:

 

[PreglerD]

What the hell is a Toby? Nickname for ML-hunter?
Are you are hunter already?