Wound bakllistic of ML-bullets?

[hawkeye1755]

What the hell is a Toby? Nickname for ML-hunter?Are you are hunter already?

TOBY BRIDGES
It's time for you to start reading the thread:Traditional Muzzleloading Under Attack!
After the german law.NO.
But when we have a Traditional Hunting Season in Germany, i'm the first one to start making the 'Jägerprüfung'.
:hatsoff:

 

[romeoh]

Kirrmeister and romeoh , as police officers didn't you have to work? :hmm:
You know,hunting the bad guy's and so on :haha:
:hatsoff:

Well, here´s my excuse. I had a little meeting with a surgeon and it´s knife. Now I have to wait for the cut to heal and lot´s of time for my pc.

romeoh

 

[bob1961]

all this talk going round that the round ball isn't a good deer getter any more has to do with keeping yer shot within the shooting range of yer gun....not trying to shoot deer over 100 - 150 yards then yes ya will have wounded deer just like ya have wounded deer at 200 - 300 yards with the modern muzzle loaders with there scopes and sabots that are just a .44 pistol bullet getting shot out of a rifle and we all know that's not right....just cause ya have a scope on them modern guns to see deer at them ranges don't mean ya can cleanly harvast them at those ranges....all of us tradtitional hunters know we can't shoot over 75 - 100 yards to humanly harvast our deer so we keep inside of those ranges....besides i think it's a more rewarding hunt when ya can get as close as possible to the deer without them knowing yer there....that is the most rewarding part of any hunt fer me then picking them off at 200+ yards when they don't even know ya are there :v ...............bob

 

[hawkeye1755]

besides i think it's a more rewarding hunt when ya can get as close as possible to the deer without them knowing yer there....that is the most rewarding part of any hunt fer me then picking them off at 200+ yards when they don't even know ya are there :v ...............bob

That are the right words,bob. :bow:
Hunting is not only shooting it is more.When you can't come near enough without to be noticed from an animal,i think you were not good enough that day. :shocked2:
But in Germany we have this big lobby.And most of these guys are over 70.
They didn't think about it,that our forefathers were hunting with a jaeger rifle.Or they forget it.
:hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I didn't have the right word so i used animalfriendly. It is certainly not very friendly for the animal when shooting at it, but when it is killed fast so it is animalfriendly, in German: "waidgerecht" oder tierschutzgerecht".

I guess our equivalent would be a "clean kill". Yours may also bring "fair chase" into it if I translate "gerecht" correctly.

A clean kill depends more on shot placement than muzzle energy. Shoot a deer in the stomach with a .375 H&H Magnum or a 9.3mm X 74R and it will still fail to be a clean kill.

Fair Chase is up to an individual's interpretation: I take it to mean the deer was hunted in a sportsmanlike manner. Some would consider bait, attractant lures, treestands, etc. unfair and/or unsporting advantages to the hunters, though they are legal in many geographic areas. It's hard to legislate fairness as there is no such thing in nature and is a purely human invention. Hunting with a weapon that only has a 70M range seems much more fair and sporting to me than hunting with one that has a 300M range. You're going past "hunting" and on into just "shooting".

 

[netoleon]

Interesting situation. I actually would have expected a more scientific approach in Germany - and a more emotional, pseudo-factual one here in the states. Das ist doch furchtbar bloed !

I don't have any links to wound ballistics data handy. But if you all wanted to change the focus of the argument away from the sensitive subject of tiershutzgerecht toward the practical aspects of implementing muzzleloader hunting, most U.S. states have information on their hunting programs online. That often includes muzzleloader regulations designed to help insure a clean kill. For example, Maryland dept. of Natural Resources web site is quite good - http://www.dnr.state.md.us. You'll find there that MD muzzleloaders took 20,844 deer in the 05-06 season. You can rest assured that most of them expired quickly, without any tierquaelerei (animal cruelty). Of course, your opponents could merely counter that the large number only proves that Americans are Barbarians!

Viel glueck, Kameraden.

 

[PreglerD]

thanks for the post. As you said the biggest problem would be the less acceptance of US-hunting rules and practics in Germany. The US-methods would certainly be called as cruel, barbarian, not european, bla, bla... Further more then the critics will start illegal comparisons to American policy of foreign affairs and so on. It is very difficult here in Germany to establish something new. But i will try it and so i hope for your support with pics and argues.

 

[stinger]

....I wonder how acceptable hunting with an bow & arrow is in Germany? :hmm: Now is that on the cruel list also?

 

[hawkeye1755]

....I wonder how acceptable hunting with an bow & arrow is in Germany? :hmm: Now is that on the cruel list also?

NO HUNTING WITH BOW&ARROW IN GERMANY

 

[romeoh]

Forbidden by german hunting laws. No arrows, no bolts. :nono:

romeoh

 

[PreglerD]

Bowhunting is permitted by hunting law. there you can read:" It is forbidden to shot at deer with arrows,..."

 

[bigbore442001]

I remember my dad's friend telling me that he hunted deer and boar in the Berlin area with shotgun slugs. I would say a good comparison to the killing power of a muzzleloader would be to compare it to a shotgun with slugs. You have a large diameter, heavy lead projectile traveling at a moderate velocity. That comparison may convince the hunting authorities to accept a muzzleloading rifle for hunting.

I know about the prohibition of archery for hunting in Germany. It is odd, but last week I shot a 150 lb dressed wieght whitetailed buck. It had 6 points and the deer was taken during the rut, or mating season. At this time, bucks have one thing on their mind. When the deer walked past me at 10 yards, I loosed an arrow into it's upper chest. I wore a ghillie suit thus the deer had no idea I was off to the side against a large pine tree.

The reaction of the deer being hit is very interesting. It seemed as if the deer did not know what happened. Before it it stopped for a moment, it had it's head close to the ground and tail was wagging.It must have been trailing a doe in heat. I blew a kiss, thus making him stop for a minute and shot. He took off for about ten yards. Stopped and looked around. He then went back on the trail sniffing for the doe in heat, complete with wagging tail. He went over a small log, stumbled, fell and got back up to sniff and wag after the doe. I heard some rustling over the knoll. He died without even knowing he was hit. I and others have seen such things. An arrow with a well sharpened broadhead in a vital area is very deadly and humane.

 

[renovato]

It's not so much about energy as it is about tissue damage. The muzzleloading bullet or ball is already bigger than most centerfire rifle bullets will expand to be. The round ball flattens to be even bigger, ans some conicals expand also. This punches a very large hole through the animal, causing more shock, bleeding and tissue damage than many centerfires can achieve with their high velocity.

The fact that a deer hit solidly with a round ball doesn't travel far is proof. I rarely hear of a deer making 100 meters after a hit. More like 50. Ask the centerfire people how far theirs travel after being hit. Muzzleloaders with ball or conical are extremely effective hunting guns and there are hundreds of years of proof.

 

[Slamfire]

Judging from the fast twist rates in the old Jager-buchse I've examined, leads me to believe they used very light charges of powder considering they used large bores, and round balls. :winking:

 

[PreglerD]

Problem of ML-hunting in GE is not so much the law but is a problem of mind. The nitro hunters wouldn't accept the facts at all. They doesn't see the accuracy and power, they only see the in their eyes old gun, the antique form of loading with no more uo to date propellant, and so on.This way they try to make believe ML is prohibited by law. But even the DEVA (German Institute for gun and ammo testing) says that it is not prohibited.

The comparison with the slug shooting was already used from me to convince the critics. Didn't work. It's like talking against the wall.

 

[Stumpkiller]

NO HUNTING WITH BOW&ARROW IN GERMANY

WHAT!?! Not even with cedar arrow and traditional bows?

Why, that's like having a library but not allowing books on poetry. That's like . . . like. . . driving a Porsche Boxter with an automatic transmission. :shocked2:

The Romans were right. You are vandals and savages. :rotf: Sometimes you've got to put down the sliderule and scope and pick up a stick and string. Pure, distilled hunting.

 

[hawkeye1755]

Please, Kirrmeister and romeoh corrected me if i'm wrong, but i think hunters in Germany are not really respected.A lot of hunters said to me, that most of their colleagues in Germany are 'trophy hunters'. :hmm:
In my little town ,there is a hunter who had is dog learn to kill cats.One day that dog kill my tomcat on my parcel.Found it with an open belly.I say to him, the next time i see his dog on my parcel, i would shoot his dog.That was not a nice view for my daughters.
:hatsoff:

 

[romeoh]

Sad to hear about your cat. Sure a shock for your kids and of course you too.
But this has to do with how the dog was trained. It was trained for hunting. An animal -your cat- was running away, the animal was obviously small enough to rule the situation and so the dog followed it´s nature. It started hunting. Best way to prevent such things in my opinion is to have a cat at home, so the dog can learn that a cat is member of the pack. Nothing to hunt, just like the 2-leg-members of the pack...
But: Not every hunter has a cat, some even don´t like them. Might have been so in your case.

And trophy-hunters, well, I think they are everywhere, and nowadays the hunters that are forced to go hunting instead of dieing from hunger are very few i think, especially in the western world.

German hunters may be respected or not. They exist. For german hunters exist a lot of rules that may be curious to others.
You could for example explain a german hunter also in this way. A person who spends a lot of time and own money to forfill a plan dictated every year again by the authoritys, in which is declared how much game he has to shoot and what kind of. He also has to feed in winter, so the animals don´t cause that much damage to the trees.
Therefore you could also explain those guys also as workers for the authority and the forest-owners. Workers paying for ther work, not getting payed.

The worry with muzzleloading and hunting in germany is that the hunters-community don´t take ML serious, like kirrmeister already reported. Choose our german-hunter-religion, if you don´t want to come to our church - no hunting for you!
@kirrmeister: Didn´t you get my mail?

Ah guys, I have to leave. The postman delivered me new handles for my BP-Revolver and an issue of the "book of buckskinning", sent to me right from the states. :thumbsup:

Bye
romeoh

 

[hawkeye1755]

Choose our german-hunter-religion, if you don´t want to come to our church - no hunting for you!
romeoh

Yip,that is it.And that really makes me :cursing: :cursing: :youcrazy:

 

[hawkeye1755]

The Romans were right. You are vandals and savages. :rotf: Sometimes you've got to put down the sliderule and scope and pick up a stick and string. Pure, distilled hunting.

Yo,in Germany you need for everythink a licence.
Perhaps one day we need a licence to die.
What, you have no licences to die,sorry you cannot do that.
:shocked2: