Controversial question. Short rodding a patched ball.

WarDawg · Aug 24, 2024

I’m not asking to get folks riled up. But I have heard if you don’t get the projectile ( ball & patch ) for me , fully down the barrel you are setting it up for bad karma to your rifle. It’s nothing would do on purpose. But can happen. Watching a guy on YouTube talking about it. Where folks might push the round down with the ball starter . But forget to actually rod it any further. I know what we hear. But what is the truth in what we have seen . Some say nothing bad will happen. Some say ruined barrel. Where's the proof for either argument. Courious. Wardawg

wiscoaster · Aug 24, 2024

You might check out this thread:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/barrel-bulged.69882/

Also here (another forum; mods please delete if not allowed);
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41214.0

Grenadier1758 · Aug 24, 2024

So much depends on the bore diameter, the thickness of the barrel walls, the steel of the barrel and the powder charge. There have been barrels that have bulged when the ball is short started. There are a few that have catastrophically failed by splitting where the ball was short started. There are many barrels that have survived being shot when short started. A kind of cursory examination was done by two shooters (The Bevel Brothers) for a Muzzle Blasts) article for the NMLRA. Based on the rifles they tested and measured for bulging, their conclusion was that nothing bad happened to their rifles. I did have the experience of shooting a short started ball in my 1 1/8" across the flats 45 caliber rifle. There was no damage to my rifle.

This not a recommended practice. If it happens, the barrel must be inspected and not treated as if nothing bad occurred. The barrel needs to be checked for bulging. Destructive failure can occur.

RiverRat · Aug 24, 2024

Back in the late 70’s I short loaded a rb in my CVA Mountain rifle. I bulged the barrel about 4” from the muzzle. It was a light bulge and I didn’t even notice it until years later when I sold the gun. It shot great with the bulge and I even won a turkey shoot with it.

WarDawg · Aug 25, 2024

Thanks for the reply’s with links. Learned a lot from others folks misfortunes. Sadly. Good life experiences shared. Thanks again. Wardawg

TCMonts · Aug 26, 2024

Years ago a freind shot at a whitetail buckthatfor some reason did not immediately leave the area
In his haste to reload and get a second shot he spilled some of the powder in his quickload and added a little more without measuring then hastily rammed in a maxiball. He killed the deer but later noticeda "wallnut" in the barrel about 6" up from the breach. I belive a combination of an over load, a not fully seated maxiball and a light weight barrel a .45 Seneca ruined his gun.

BCWILL · Aug 28, 2024

A few years ago…..my son and I had matching Pedersoli frontier rifles, both 50 cal. We were at the range one day and shot quite a bit, he ended up short seating a ball ( ball stuck about 3”s above the charge ) dirty bore, not enough spit.
…..the ball came out just fine upon shooting but left a noticeable ring/bulge in the barrel right above the charge.

So yep, seat those balls !

Eric Krewson · Aug 29, 2024

I short started my .54 twice with the ball about 4" into the barrel, Rice barrel, 90 gr of 2f, .535 ball, no bulging or damage, I got lucky.

bpd303 · Aug 29, 2024

This owner wasn't as lucky, although he sustained only minor injuries. Short started about 6 inches from the muzzle, patched ball in a smooth bore.

French Colonial · Aug 30, 2024

bpd303 said:
This owner wasn't as lucky, although he sustained only minor injuries. Short started about 6 inches from the muzzle, patched ball in a smooth bore.
View attachment 345569

Yeah..

That must have been one of those "made in India" rifles I keep reading about.

Just kidding!!!!

Grenadier1758 · Aug 30, 2024

bpd303 said:
This owner wasn't as lucky, although he sustained only minor injuries. Short started about 6 inches from the muzzle, patched ball in a smooth bore.
View attachment 345569

While this example strengthens the warning to make sure the ball is not short started, there is more information that is lacking to tell the full story. It is stated that the barrel was a smoothbore. It appears from the set triggers that this firearm started out as a rifle and the barrel was later bored out to be smooth. I would be interested to know what the size of the barrel was across the flats, what was the barrel bored out to and was this a ball or a shot load that burst the barrel. Because of the perceived modification to the barrel, I don't think that identifying the maker of the rifle is as pertinent as the other information.

Larry (Omaha) · Aug 30, 2024

Eric Krewson said:
I short started my .54 twice with the ball about 4" into the barrel, Rice barrel, 90 gr of 2f, .535 ball, no bulging or damage, I got lucky.

Eric,
Oviously you would not have fired it had you known ahead of discharge. Since you got lucky, how did you know that the short start did occur? Was the discharge sound different?
Larry

Pete G · Aug 30, 2024

Larry (Omaha) said:
Eric,
Oviously you would not have fired it had you known ahead of discharge. Since you got lucky, how did you know that the short start did occur? Was the discharge sound different?
Larry

Sounds like a squib load, sort of a loud PFFFT!!!

SDSmlf · Aug 30, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
It is stated that the barrel was a smoothbore. It appears from the set triggers that this firearm started out as a rifle and the barrel was later bored out to be smooth. I would be interested to know what the size of the barrel was across the flats, what was the barrel bored out to and was this a ball or a shot load that burst the barrel.

May not be a rebore, as TC sold quite a few 56 caliber smooth bores in Renegade stocks with double set triggers. The stock in the ‘exploded’ view appears to be a TC Hawken, which also came with a 1” atf barrel in 54 caliber, allowing the TC 56 smooth bore barrel to drop right in. Here is a photograph of a TC 56 caliber smoothbore that rests in the safe.

As far as the cause of the exploded barrel a few posts back, it doesn’t look like any of the short started barrels with blackpowder loads that I save seen, though with it split from breech to muzzle, it looks very similar to photographs of barrels destroyed with that powder that doesn’t smoke, short started or not.

Grenadier1758 · Aug 30, 2024

@SDSmlf, I based my reply seeing the brass butt plate and brass trigger guard that the firearm was not a Renegade in 56 smooth bore. But in any event, there is a lot more to the examination of that pictured rifle than a short started ball.

SDSmlf · Aug 30, 2024

Grenadier1758 said:
@SDSmlf, I based my reply seeing the brass butt plate and brass trigger guard that the firearm was not a Renegade in 56 smooth bore. But in any event, there is a lot more to the examination of that pictured rifle than a short started ball.

A closeup of what’s stamped on the barrel would be a clue, though honestly doubt there would be evidence of charcoal or sulfur residue in the bore (unless from a previous load), but without the barrel in hand to examine, just speculation.

Wirehair · Aug 31, 2024

Got my first ML rifle in '68 and knew almost nothing about black powder shooting other than a few general references (pre internet and no mentor). My buddy's dad had an original .36 percussion, so we headed to the range. After 4-5 shots, without swabbing, he could only push the ball about 3/4 down the bore. No problem, he just shot it out. Blew the drum out of the barrel (don't know if the barrel bulged). Lesson learned.

WarDawg · Aug 31, 2024

Ok. What exactly is happening for it to burst / or ring a barrel ? The distance of the powder charge and explosion from the projectile builds to much pressure vs the projectile sitting up against powder ?? While ridding the projectile up against the powder is what we want. But what is the distance of safe zone to no man’s land ? Wardawg

WarDawg · Aug 31, 2024

WarDawg said:
Ok. What exactly is happening for it to burst / or ring a barrel ? The distance of the powder charge and explosion from the projectile builds to much pressure vs the projectile sitting up against powder ?? While rodding the projectile up against the powder is what we want. But what is the distance of safe zone to no man’s land ? Wardawg

Howard Pippin · Aug 31, 2024

Pete G said:
Sounds like a squib load, sort of a loud PFFFT!!!

Did you use black powder? I did this three times to a 50 caliber that I have before I figured a way to get around it, but I use 777 as this is a percussion rifle and it did the same thing, sounded like a squib load and it didn't even hit the target. I was concerned that black powder might put different pressure on than what 777 did being that the 777 had more room to expand. I didn't think it would burn this fast because it generally takes pressure to burn any kind of smokeless powder very fast. Black powder burns about the same, in a gun or just throwed on the ground.

Controversial question. Short rodding a patched ball.

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