.36 Colt Navy that powerful??????

smoothshooter said:

They also wanted the 58 and 69 caliber muskets for good horse killing power.
Between 3 and 5 thousand horses and mules were killed at the battle at Gettysburg.
Almost all were killed by artillery and musket fire.

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I'd say most by artillery so the large caliber of rifles wasn't that relevant, there anyway.

Eutycus said:

I'd say most by artillery so the large caliber of rifles wasn't that relevant, there anyway.

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I agree most of the horses and mules were probably killed by artillery fire at Gettysburg, and other battles, if there was a sizable artillery presence.
But in an engagement where significantly large bodies cavalry were doing frontal attacks on infantry formations ( not the case at Gettysburg ) the large caliber muskets would have wreaked havoc on the horses.

I have heard people comment on it but have never seen it in writing about "horse pistols" or larger calibers being for the specific purpose of stopping a horse. Though it does make sense.

if i was to get a navy for edc, why not get one of the non p.c. models in .44 and have the best of both worlds? let the flogging begin.

TrophyGuy said:

We all extoll the virtues of our favorite smoke pole, ignoring numbers. That's OK. We shoot for fun. Back in the days when Dirty Harry's "most powerful handgun in the world" was touted as adequate to dispatch anything, a realist observed that it was ballistically inferior to the humble thirty-thirty that grandpa used. I heard the same sort of comparison to the .36 C&B as being ballistically inferior to a .380 ACP shot from a tiny plastic mouse gun concealable in the palm of your hand. Wouldn't want anything that goes bang to hit me, but there is a measure of reality in all this fun shooting that supersedes nostalgia and legend. All that said, my Navy six looks more elegant in my hand than the plastic fantastic ten shot EDC I conceal.

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The Colt would be more likely to give a perp second thoughts, might not have to pull the trigger. Dale

As far as people breaking into my house, whether old or young, I remember what a drill instructor told us. "If you want sympathy, look it up in Webster's. It's listed between s#!t and syp#!l!s . Hpow many 13 & 14 year olds have perpetrated school shootings?

Rifleman1776 said:

Watched an episode of 'Hollywood Guns, Fact or Fiction' last night. One of their tests 'proved' a .36 cal. Colt Navy c&b revolver was a lot (a real lot) more powerful than I personally would have thought. They fired a lead round ball, with real bp, from a distance of about 30 feet at a ballistic gel torso, with bone structure, and another torso behind it. The round hit about one inch below the sternum bone, penetrated the torso completely and lodged about halfway into the backing torso. That is some powerful penetration. It is what happened on their TV test. But, personally, I would not depend on that little .36 cal. pill to be that effective from a pistol with it's small charge.

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Well I guess the Colt Navy .36 did its job on Davis Tutt in Springfield Mo. , 1865. The 1 shot was fired into Tutt’s chest as he stood sideways in the town square opposite of Bill Hickok. At 75 yards distance, that’s good shooting with a pistol off hand. Not to mention the .36 cal (pellet’s) lethal effect.
It’s all about the placement of the shot and the calmness of the shooter.

Dale Lilly said:

Hickok killed Davis Tutt at a measured 75 yards with what most believe was a Colt .36. I'll duck for cover.

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Sorry Dale I covered your story, my apologies.

Nothing to do with hits, but….
About 40 years ago in the state of Victoria the law was relaxed and bp replicas were legal to buy without a license.
A friend of mine was in the queue to buy one at a gun show and in front of him was a young police woman,
They got chatting and she told him that she was buying a Colt Police model as a backup pistol, she said that her colleagues further up the line were doing the same thing.
She said further that the bp pistol would be adequate if the occasion arose. He asked her to let him know if she ever used it and gave her his phone number.
A couple of years later she rang him and said that she’d been in a confrontation at night, with a large and aggressive crim, and had fired one shot into the air to emphasise that she’d shoot.
Said he went to pieces when confronted by such “a powerful gun” which she said was because he was unfamiliar with black powder and the flame and smoke really scared him.

My friend bought an 1858 Remington in .44 and when he opened the box it was an 1875 in .44/40.
For some strange reason he didn’t report the mistake

bud in pa said:

As far as people breaking into my house, whether old or young, I remember what a drill instructor told us. "If you want sympathy, look it up in Webster's. It's listed between s#!t and syp#!l!s . Hpow many 13 & 14 year olds have perpetrated school shootings?

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My instructor, ex military, ex cop, has the same idea. If someone has broken into your house at night, shoot them. Hesitating may get you shot. I still would have trouble shooting a seemingly unarmed kid but his point is valid.

OlSwede said:

Sorry Dale I covered your story, my apologies.

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Noy a problem.

its always easy to use excessive force. real courage and skill is handling the situation without violence.

Rifleman1776 said:

Watched an episode of 'Hollywood Guns, Fact or Fiction' last night. One of their tests 'proved' a .36 cal. Colt Navy c&b revolver was a lot (a real lot) more powerful than I personally would have thought. They fired a lead round ball, with real bp, from a distance of about 30 feet at a ballistic gel torso, with bone structure, and another torso behind it. The round hit about one inch below the sternum bone, penetrated the torso completely and lodged about halfway into the backing torso. That is some powerful penetration. It is what happened on their TV test. But, personally, I would not depend on that little .36 cal. pill to be that effective from a pistol with it's small charge.

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Long before CCW was a thing, carry laws varied by state and even by town, there was one general agreement amidst all this confusion of laws and ordinances, black powder/ cap and ball pistols were not firearms, Lethal weapons in some cases but not a firearm. During this period and doing a great bit of traveling, following carnivals and circuses through various areas, I carried a .36 cal. c&b antique Confederate Colt and never felt under armed or at a disadvantage. And had to, a time or three defend myself with said .36caliber pistol Only someone stoned out of their minds, stupid or otherwise mentally handicapped would stand when confronted with a firearm of any variety. But then, I have encountered more than my share of stupid and mentally deficient people.

I certainly do not feel under gunned with a 58 remi with a fresh cylinder in it. that tune might change if somone was coming after me with an M4 or 870.... but I would certainly take my 58 over any of those plastic sub compact .380s...

Eterry said:

Bullet design, caliber, fps all have a LOT to do with performance.

For example, until the 1980s, the 158gr LRN 38 Special was the most issued cop cartridge. This was/is a fairly soft bullet, and had a terrible track record of over penetration on flesh and fail to penetrate everything else. It got many cops/bystanders hurt. I was surprised how much the 126gr era's gone bullet resembled that bullet. Maybe that explains the penetration.

In revolvers the best one shot stop cartridge was the 357 mag, with Federal 125gr JHP. It had everyone chasing their tail.

The 9mm with 115gr bullet was pretty sad, especially if FMJ variety. I worked with old timers who insisted on fmj loads, mostly former military. I asked to be their beneficiary. The 147gr was NEVER intended to be a duty round; hype over its use by military spec ops got more good guys hurt.
The 9mm was pulled by most departments after the famous Miami Shootout, the 10mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig all attempted to improve one shot stops. Most did, with the right bullet.
I can tell you the 40S&W FMJ is a joke.

Now comes the Hornady Critical Duty 9mm load with 124gr Flexlock bullet at 1175fps. This bullet design, plus weight, and velocity, is what allowed it to pass ALL of the FBI protocols for a sidearm cartridge, the 1st bullet to Ever do that. Many departments are switching back to the 9mm simply because of the Bullet, not the cartridge.

So, it's not just caliber, its not just velocity, its not just bullet design, it's All Three.

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I think we worry too much about one shot stops.
If someone needs to be shot, they deserve to be shot at least twice.
I have reason to believe that when the “shootee” is hit multiple times, the various calibers all perform pretty much the same.
I believe FMJ bullets with FLAT NOSES (wide meplat) are a good compromise in auto pistols, and I use them in my carry guns when I can. They are often hard to come by.
In .380 I buy Winchester white box FMJ FP when I stumble onto some.

when I carries a .45acp I usually had it full of 200g semi wadcutters. those things make nice holes.

Eutycus said:

I have heard people comment on it but have never seen it in writing about "horse pistols" or larger calibers being for the specific purpose of stopping a horse. Though it does make

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nick_1 said:

its always easy to use excessive force. real courage and skill is handling the situation without violence.

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True, As long as all participants are of the same inclination.

smoothshooter said:

I think we worry too much about one shot stops.
If someone needs to be shot, they deserve to be shot at least twice.
I have reason to believe that when the “shootee” is hit multiple times, the various calibers all perform pretty much the same.
I believe FMJ bullets with FLAT NOSES (wide meplat) are a good compromise in auto pistols, and I use them in my carry guns when I can. They are often hard to come by.
In .380 I buy Winchester white box FMJ FP when I stumble onto some.

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Back in the day when we all carried .38 special solid lead bullets as duty ammo, I faced a guy in a dark alley pointing a gun at me. I fired twice. The coroner said he was dead before he hit the ground. The double tap is good life insurance.

Eterry said:

Brothers... if you have your Bibles, ( Lyman Black Powder Handbook, 13th printing), you'll see the ballistics for most CNB revolvers.

The 31 Cal, using a 50gr RB, tops out at 795 FPS, for 70 ft/lbs of energy.
I'm guessing close to a 22 LR revolver.

The 36 Cal, using a 81gr RB, tops out at 1097 FPS, for 216 ft/lbs of energy.
Using the 150gr Conical, the top FPS is 787 fps, for 206 ft/lbs of energy.
Using a RB in the 36 is similar, energy wise, to a hot (Ken Waters) load for the 32 S&W Long. The Conical is indeed similar to the 38 S&W.

The 44 Cal, using a 138gr RB, reaches 1032 FPS and delivers 326 ft/lbs of energy.
The Conical, weighing 155grs, reaches 885 FPS, and produces 269 ft/lbs of energy.
Both loads are very similar to duty loads for 38 special, but with more frontal area.

They were fantastic weapons in their day, but like the Model T Ford, there are better options today.

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I have Lyman’s 2nd Edition and the problem is that they didn’t also test Swiss. Olde Eynsford made by Goex to compete with Swiss is a much newer powder that may not be available any longer after their disaster, and it seems Triple 7 may not have been available at testing or maybe too new and passed over. All of these powders produce higher velocities.

Another thing is there were all sorts of qualities of powders then just as now, and there was testing done on some .44 cal Hazard’s paper cartridges. According to records they used their new Pistol Powder. When dissected it contained 4F granulation, and when tested found to be as energetic as Swiss powder, though I’m not sure if they meant 3 or 4F Swiss. These paper cartridges contained 36 grns of powder under a 211 grn bullet.

There’s a UK black powder calculator designed specifically for Swiss powder. Out of curiosity I had entered 30 grns of 3F Swiss and an 80 grn ball through a 7.5” barrel and it ended up with something like 280 ft/lbs of energy. Olde Eynsford and Triple 7 tend to give ever so slightly lower numbers and less consistency than Swiss, but still rather close.

France also has some sporting grade powder, but it doesn’t seem to be imported into the US. There was also a South African powder being developed. I never kept up with that.

I’ve run the numbers using 4F Swiss with bullets I’ve designed and intend to design and the pressures it shows are too scary to try. If i had no sporting grade options you can bet I’d be using someone’s 4F, which typically still seems to fall short of sporting grade 3F.

Eutycus said:

I have heard people comment on it but have never seen it in writing about "horse pistols" or larger calibers being for the specific purpose of stopping a horse. Though it does make sense.

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Growing up in the '50s-'60s. had the privilege, honor of learning from a few of the 'old timers' still around that used BP pistols and rifles every day. Once in a while, 'horse pistols' would be mentioned. Fact or fiction, according to these 'old timers' a horse pistol was one that too large or heavy to wear on a belt, the Colt Walker was often mentioned in this regard. So, the holsters for these and others like them, had loops made to hang around a saddle horn. those that have hefted fully loaded Walkers will know that they do drag on a belt if worn this way. Tall tales and exaggerations were everyday stock and trade for a bunch of old men 'sittin' around 'spit and whittle' (there's one for you to Google) clubs that existed in the 40's, 50's and even to some extent into the '60s in Small Town America.