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I wouldn’t do a third model , not huge demand in USA
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Pedersoli Brown Bess ?’s
- Thread starter CascadeRob
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I wouldn’t do a third model , not huge demand in USA
A Bess has unique architecture. A Bess in anything other than walnut (and *maybe* beech) will look like a Bess in the wrong wood. Colonial guns may have resembled them, but were not copies by any stretch.
Of course, one could always modify a Bess stock to make it more generic.
A situation that is almost as silly as the love of the Bess in general while completely ignoring the French muskets. Or the odd love affair with the Baker rifle.
We purchased roughly 9500 P1793 Besses from England near the end of the 18th Century. And the P1809 was the English musket of the 1812 war.
Anyone who loves muzzleloading and was a Marine should love the P1793. It was the preferred musket for them.
Virginia certainly had some that came very close.
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Here is one
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And English Gentlemans Flintlock Sporting Rifle.
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I was fortunate to buy one when they were still being made decades ago, and will never part with it.
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Im itching to don my Butlers Rangers outfit (I do have one) and get over there when the 250th anniversary happens.
stephenprops1
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I agree with you 100%. The other guy is some type of "know it all" jerk. Like you, I also have studied history. During the French & Indian War the British government did supply the colonist with Brown Bess muskets. Some of Rogers' Rangers used a cut down Brown Bess, creating a carbine. I personally have a replica of one of those. The Continental Congress borrowed money from France to buy and equip our forces with Charleville muskets too.
At the end of the F&I war, the Crown had sent approximately 30,000 Kings pattern muskets with wood rammers (1730, 1730/40, 1742 patterns) and 4,500 Dutch muskets. 2,000 P1757 Marine & Militia muskets were also sent, there were also full commercial copies of the Kings musket that were imported. How many survived to be placed into armories of the various colonies and the royal storehouse in NY I have never been able to find out. There were in all probability some private citizens that kept their muskets, but that is something that would be hard to pin down.
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Hi,
There is an interesting story about using beech wood for Brown Besses. During the Rev War, the supply of walnut for muskets ran sort and the usual suppliers in England and the Baltic states could not meet the demand. So ordnance proposed using beech as a substitute. Because the British ordnance system was a government/private partnership, the private contractors had something to say about the process and the rough stockers refused to use beech. They were afraid they would stock up on beech blanks and then the war would end and the contracts cancelled. They did not want to be stuck with wood no one wanted for anything except tool handles and fire wood. Consequently, ordnance looked farther afield for walnut and ended up buying large quantities from Italy. So modern Pedersoli Besses are not completely wrong.
dave
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Hi Nick,
Sorry, I did not respond to your question earlier. I am not sure how common the commercial muskets would have been in the early Rev War. Certainly many were purchased during from about 1747 to the early 1760s by Virginia, South Carolina, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut but by the AWI, those guns would be pretty old. If held privately, they might have been cared for and still in good condition in 1775 but I suspect any stored in colonial arsenals were probably in bad shape. In the 18th century, in which environmental controls within buildings was primitive at best, stored muskets were perishable commodities. You can imagine what kind of staff you would need to clean and maintain 500 muskets and prevent them from rusting away. Anyway, I know there are a number of surviving colonially made muskets using parts from old commercial muskets and I am sure some survived and were used. Don Troiani painted a circa 1776 3rd NJ regiment soldier carrying one. I don't know how common they were, however. Most New Jersey guns purchased during the 1750s are at the bottom of Lake George off Sabbath Day Point. I made an early Rev War NJ militia musket that used old commercial muskets parts.
dave
sportster73hp
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To the uneducated myself included, that IS a Brown bess. Only lacking the Tower engraving.Hi Nick,
Sorry, I did not respond to your question earlier. I am not sure how common the commercial muskets would have been in the early Rev War. Certainly many were purchased during from about 1747 to the early 1760s by Virginia, South Carolina, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut but by the AWI, those guns would be pretty old. If held privately, they might have been cared for and still in good condition in 1775 but I suspect any stored in colonial arsenals were probably in bad shape. In the 18th century, in which environmental controls within buildings was primitive at best, stored muskets were perishable commodities. You can imagine what kind of staff you would need to clean and maintain 500 muskets and prevent them from rusting away. Anyway, I know there are a number of surviving colonially made muskets using parts from old commercial muskets and I am sure some survived and were used. Don Troiani painted a circa 1776 3rd NJ regiment soldier carrying one. I don't know how common they were, however. Most New Jersey guns purchased during the 1750s are at the bottom of Lake George off Sabbath Day Point. I made an early Rev War NJ militia musket that used old commercial muskets parts.
dave
Dave , you do some nice work and are very educated on the subject.
I believe if Mr. Kibler offered a Brown Bess it would be well accepted, especially with the 250th anniversary coming up. July last year I purchased from Dixie a Pedersoli M1777 French Musket to experiment on loads and use in smoothbore matches. I went with the Charleville over the Brown Bess because I have noticed that whenever I would see someone using a military model in a smoothbore match it was a Bess and not a Charleville, so I wanted something a little different. Many, many years ago when I bought a replica Civil War musket for the musket matches I chose a Richmond over the Enfield and Springfield for the same reason. The Bess I long wanted was the Dublin Castle marked replica. I think it had the dates of 1724 or 1728 and I believe was an Indian gun. My reason was because to me older is better, just my personal taste to go for the older style. Concerning all the posts on this forum about Baker Rifles, nothing wrong with that or with them, but to me the ultimate British replica to own would be the Ferguson, again my personal tastes, just like I admire and prefer the '64 Impala over all other cars ever made. Don't get me wrong, a replica Bess is a wonderful choice. Before leaving the subject, back in the late 90's to early 2000's Narrangansett offered a copy of a Long Land Pattern Bess they copied from an original found in a private collection. I believe the lock was marked Willets and dated 1746. I'm sure they probably had orders for some of those but I don't know how many and if they ever come up for sale.
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Try it! You'll like it!
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The Fergusons failed because the powder fowling gummed up the screw works after a couple shots.
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Back around 1976 when I was thinking of getting into Rev War enacting, I saw an offering for a super-authentic Bess replica, (don't recall whose), but I seem to recall they weighed about 15 pounds!! I was happy with my Japan-made lighter copy with the super-reliable lock! BTW, I do wish the Pedersoli locks had a more "sharper" clean stamped lock markings; they seem a bit wan but you can't have everything in a 'mass production' item.
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There were a few small outfits making them, they were the 1756 patterns. Coach and Harness, and I believe a company in NY was making them. They were ok the coach and harness ones were hit or miss.
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Hi,
It was not powder fouling that doomed the Fergusons. It was the weakness in the stock behind the lock. All Fergusons that show hard use such as the 2 ordnance rifles still surviving and several made for the East India Company, are broken across the stock just in front of the screw plug. I've built 3 Fergusons and frequently shoot the one I own. Patrick Ferguson hints at a lube for the screw plug in some of his correspondence. I use a mix of beeswax and Crisco and am able to fire 30-40 rounds without cleaning the screw plug. A real weakness almost never mentioned is that the chamber opens for loading with one full turn of the trigger guard handle. A second full turn and the plug drops out of the gun and it is easy when loading the rifle to allow the handle to swing a second turn. That could be fatal in battle and to return the plug, you have to orient it correctly so closes with the handle pointed back. It is NOT a soldier friendly gun to shoot. Although there is a lot of hyperbole claimed for speed of loading the gun, Ferguson wrote that the real advantage was his riflemen could easily load lying down behind cover.
dave
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You certainly know about these: I guess being NOT soldier-friendly is the real killer! Thanks for the good info.
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