1,200 Yard .45 Cal Sidelock (Rice Barrels 1:17 Twist)

[M. De Land]

Any ideas as to what the transonic distance is for these bullets at these velocities? It dosnt seem to be a problem and I often think the supposed issue from coming through the sound barrier is over hyped!

Transonic bullet flight is very disruptive to bullet stability with black powder velocity. Most of the bullets flight in 1000 yard target shooting is transonic which is roughly 1350 fps down to 900 fps. As the bullet slows down the shock wave begins to move and changes the flight character because of the ever changing center of pressure in relation to center of mass of the bullet. The disruption does not occur much while the bullet is in supper sonic or drops to sub sonic but while in transition (transonic) it really buffets the bullet stability.
That was a great hit at 1200 yards but it was one out of seven and even know that the elevation for that shot was correct I see there was no spotting scope to read wind drift, mirage or direction change at the time of the shot. I hate to bust the euphoric bubble but the hit while spectacular was chance not repeatable skill without a means to see what the wind and mirage was doing and even then it takes a highly skilled rifle team (one on the scope and one on the trigger) to catch any change in wind and mirage to be consistent at these extended ranges.
It's tough with a supersonic modern cartridge,bullet and rifle and it's doubly tough with a lead black powder powered bullet in mostly transonic flight.
There are a few folks I correspond with that shoot at 1 mile using lead, 500 plus grain bullets with black powder cartridges and paper patching in the same velocity range . All of them shoot long range (800-900- and 1000) yards regularly and they know about transonic lead bullet flight intimately and what is required to hit consistently at these extended ranges.

 

[Idaholewis]

Transonic bullet flight is very disruptive to bullet stability with black powder velocity. Most of the bullets flight in 1000 yard target shooting is transonic which is roughly 1350 fps down to 900 fps. As the bullet slows down the shock wave begins to move and changes the flight character because of the ever changing center of pressure in relation to center of mass of the bullet. The disruption does not occur much while the bullet is in supper sonic or drops to sub sonic but while in transition (transonic) it really buffets the bullet stability.
That was a great hit at 1200 yards but it was one out of seven and even know that the elevation for that shot was correct I see there was no spotting scope to read wind drift, mirage or direction change at the time of the shot. I hate to bust the euphoric bubble but the hit while spectacular was chance not repeatable skill without a means to see what the wind and mirage was doing and even then it takes a highly skilled rifle team (one on the scope and one on the trigger) to catch any change in wind and mirage to be consistent at these extended ranges.
It's tough with a supersonic modern cartridge,bullet and rifle and it's doubly tough with a lead black powder powered bullet in mostly transonic flight.
There are a few folks I correspond with that shoot at 1 mile using lead, 500 plus grain bullets with black powder cartridges and paper patching in the same velocity range . All of them shoot long range (800-900- and 1000) yards regularly and they know about transonic lead bullet flight intimately and what is required to hit consistently at these extended ranges.

How much long Range do YOU PERSONALLY Shoot? What distances? How often do YOU do it?

 

[M. De Land]

How much long Range do YOU PERSONALLY Shoot? What distances? How often do YOU do it?

I have ten years of competitive midrange experience at 200 offhand, 300 sitting and 600 prone with grease and to a lessor extent paper patch lead bullets fueled with BP.
To be competitive at mid and long range you have to learn how to not only cast, load and make good ammo you have to learn how to read wind and mirage or your just blowing smoke . You have to be able to crank in sight settings of vertical and horizontal at a moments notice from your spotter on the scope watching the wind and mirage change. I own and use the same type of sights used on the rifle in this thread on several target guns I own. The principles at 600 yards are precisely the same as at any other extended range but far less critical than at say1000 or a mile.
The bullet does not care wither or not it is muzzle loaded , breech seated or seated in a brass case, they all react the same in flight.
Paper patching is common in the black powder cartridge game but all the current national records at mid and long range I'm aware of are held by grease groove bullets.
I shoot paper patch bullets in several cartridges and have for years it isn't like some new, big deal thing !

 

[Zonie]

To all:

Please stop talking about self contained cartridges and the guns that shoot them.
This is a Traditional Muzzleloading forum so muzzleloaders are what we talk about.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have ten years of competitive midrange experience at 200 offhand, 300 sitting and 600 prone with grease and to a lessor extent paper patch lead bullets fueled with BP.
To be competitive at mid and long range you have to learn how to not only cast, load and make good ammo you have to learn how to read wind and mirage or your just blowing smoke . You have to be able to crank in sight settings of vertical and horizontal at a moments notice from your spotter on the scope watching the wind and mirage change. I own and use the same type of sights used on the rifle in this thread on several target guns I own. The principles at 600 yards are precisely the same as at any other extended range but far less critical than at say1000 or a mile.
The bullet does not care wither or not it is muzzle loaded , breech seated or seated in a brass case, they all react the same in flight.
Paper patching is common in the black powder cartridge game but all the current national records at mid and long range I'm aware of are held by grease groove bullets.
I shoot paper patch bullets in several cartridges and have for years it isn't like some new, big deal thing !

I never said ANYTHING about Paper Patch? Though I do shoot a TON of it, But it wasn’t spoke of, and isn’t the case here. Just Remember “Sunny side of your house”

I am not interested in 3rd party info, It’s QUITE obvious that I don’t need it

 

[fleener]

In the World LRML matches in the individual events, you have no spotter. You are all on your own once you hit paper.

Makes it a whole different game when you have to get up after each shot, mark your score, load your rifle and get back down into position, plus you are pair firing with another person. When pair firing, you have to wait on them to shoot, and for the target to be marked and run back up. You do all of this and have to keep an eye on the wind and call your own wind and sight changes.

Stress in a match? Try having misses off the target at 1,000 yards in the middle of your relay and you have absolutely no idea on if you are high, low, left or right. You are racking your brain to determine if you should crank on your sights and what you missed down range regarding change of conditions.

Regarding PP bullets'. I have a World record at 900 yard with a PP bullet. In the 2015 World LRML matches I shot a 67 3V out of a possibility of 75 points. A V is a bullseye. 15 shot match, max points per bullet is 5. I averaged 4.46 points per shot. This was with a Rigby rifle built in 1864. Sometimes everything works, sometimes it does not. The next day at 1,000 yards I had two misses in the middle of my relay. The misses were a great learning experience for me.

Fleener

 

[M. De Land]

In the World LRML matches in the individual events, you have no spotter. You are all on your own once you hit paper.

Makes it a whole different game when you have to get up after each shot, mark your score, load your rifle and get back down into position, plus you are pair firing with another person. When pair firing, you have to wait on them to shoot, and for the target to be marked and run back up. You do all of this and have to keep an eye on the wind and call your own wind and sight changes.

Stress in a match? Try having misses off the target at 1,000 yards in the middle of your relay and you have absolutely no idea on if you are high, low, left or right. You are racking your brain to determine if you should crank on your sights and what you missed down range regarding change of conditions.

Regarding PP bullets'. I have a World record at 900 yard with a PP bullet. In the 2015 World LRML matches I shot a 67 3V out of a possibility of 75 points. A V is a bullseye. 15 shot match, max points per bullet is 5. I averaged 4.46 points per shot. This was with a Rigby rifle built in 1864. Sometimes everything works, sometimes it does not. The next day at 1,000 yards I had two misses in the middle of my relay. The misses were a great learning experience for me.

Fleener

Good wind doping is an art onto itself but is essential for any long range consistency. I have two friends you may know that shoot long range muzzle loaders. Both have since moved out of AK but one Raymond Hanson was in the world tournament a few years ago I think in Australia or perhaps New Zealand and did quite well. The other Bob Engelbach made up an underhammer long range gun but I'm not sure he is shooting it much competitively of late.

 

[M. De Land]

Good wind doping is an art onto itself but is essential for any long range consistency. I have two friends you may know that shoot long range muzzle loaders. Both have since moved out of AK but one Raymond Hanson was in the world tournament a few years ago I think in Australia and did quite well. The other Bob Engelbach made up an underhammer long range gun but I'm not sure he is shooting it much competitively of late.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Personally, I would rather jump off a high bridge than get a pole rammed up my.....
Well you get my drift....lol, drift, get it?

 

[M. De Land]

I never said ANYTHING about Paper Patch? Though I do shoot a TON of it, But it wasn’t spoke of, and isn’t the case here. Just Remember “Sunny side of your house”

I am not interested in 3rd party info, It’s QUITE obvious that I don’t need it

You have only proven that you know very little about long range lead bullet shooting with one chance hit at 1200 yards. If you don't learn to read and react to wind, mirage and reversal you will never be consistently accurate at even 500 yards! I define accuracy by target accuracy not by miniute of moose accuracy.

 

[Bill M.]

Let me see....the OP hit the 20" square on his second shot at range at 1200 yards with iron sights and somebody wants me to believe the OP does not know anything about long range shooting?

 

[Bad Karma]

Let me see....the OP hit the 20" square on his second shot at range at 1200 yards with iron sights and somebody wants me to believe the OP does not know anything about long range shooting?

Lewis does seem to make lucky hits...



Regularly... “Chance favors the prepared”

 

[Bad Karma]

I have learnt an awful lot on this forum. From Mike, Zonie, Britsmoothy Jonathan, Jim the rebel from the north, and a host of others. For whatever reason there seems to be some sort of acrimony directed at the boys from Idaho. Sometimes it’s worse than others.

I’ll say this. They’re both shooters, they take this hobby seriously, (Lewis in particular is probably clinically OCD when it comes to this pastime) but they both have much to offer. I‘ve learned a great deal from all of you, and I sincerely hope ALL of the people involved can continue to contribute to one of the best muzzleloading resources on the web.

“We need to stick together gentlemen, or we will most assuredly hang separately.”

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

That was an excellent shot ! Outstanding ! Nobody can take that away from you. Reading the wind, mirage and considering temperature as you know all comes into the equation. I’m certain you must keep a dope book for your barrels too. In another life, I did some of that stuff.

As far as it being a “lucky” shot, they all are. All the gadgets employed to make those shots only add up to what can be a SWAG for the briefest of moments, as long as nothing changes between trigger time, detonation and time to target.

They key factor I believe is the man who knows his equipment intimately, and knows and understands his surroundings.

Lastly, as far as that being a “repeatable“ shot... I would not want to be standing in front of you even at 1,200 yards, much less kneeling and praying you couldn’t do it again.

Excellent video, story and all !

 

[JohnnieT]

The effort and science that go into this type of shooting are incredible. Very impressive. Me? I get cocky if I hit a pie plate at 300 yards...

 

[Idaholewis]

Thank you for the kind words guy’s I put a lot of time & effort in this stuff, I shoot a LOT of Long Range, I do it because I thoroughly enjoy it. I would NEVER take a Shot at a Game animal at these kind of Distances (unless my life depended on it in some way or another?) I do this stuff strictly for fun, To test my ability & push the limits.

Fact is, I set a Target up at a RANGED 1,200 Yards With full intentions of hitting it with my .45 Caliber Muzzleloader & Peep sights. Having NEVER Shot this Distance before, It only took me a Total of 7 Shots to figure it out (This is Counting my “Throw away” Fouling Shot) Shots #6 & 7 are in the Video above, Shot #6 Hits to the left of my Target as you can see in the Video, I was able to see that hit on Playback & I called it in the Video, I then made a Windage Sight correction and took shot #7 Which Hit the 20” Steel Plate.

I have NO DOUBT I can do this again, and i fully intend to. I have the sight setting now, I Just need a Calm & Clear morning. I plan on trying this same 1200 Yard Shoot with my 1:24 Twist .50 Cal as well

 

[R.J.Bruce]

In my lifetime I have been privileged to witness several incredible marksmen shoot. One thing they all had in common was that, by today's standards, they were either untrained in long distance shooting, or had WWII, Korean War, or Vietnam War level training as Marine marksmen, or Army snipers.

I have been reading his posts, and watching his videos, for several years now, and I can conclusively state that Idaholewis seems to have the same intuitive ability to read the conditions at long range that those other men had.

Which is to say, that he does not NEED to know all of the esoteric reasons that effect a bullet's flight, because his extensive practice at long range, his intuitive understanding of his equipment, and the ability to make corrections on the fly based upon the previous shot, and his knowledge of shooting; allow him to do many of the same things in his "Human Calculator", ie. his brain, that a spotter, a ballistics calculator, a range card, a range finder, a spotting scope, and a high-tech variable power riflescope do on a sniper team.

Which is not to say that he probably couldn't benefit from knowing what a modern sniper knows, after all, knowledge is power.

But, to put him down, and to demean his accomplishments, just because he doesn't know something that you know, is, in my opinion, the worst kind of arrogance.

As often as Idaholewis shoots, he is still a PART TIME shooter. He doesn't get to shoot the thousands of hours that a Marine, SEAL, or ARMY sniper gets to practice, before they ever take a 1,200 yard shot at a human target.

So, I say BRAVO to Mr. Lewis. I think all of his 600-plus yard shots, with 19th Century peep sights, utilizing a modern 4140CM steel barrel, in a 30-plus year old wooden stock, and using a percussion cap fired by a 30-plus year old lock; should be COMMENDED!!!! Period.

 

[kemart17]

In my lifetime I have been privileged to witness several incredible marksmen shoot. One thing they all had in common was that, by today's standards, they were either untrained in long distance shooting, or had WWII, Korean War, or Vietnam War level training as Marine marksmen, or Army snipers.

I have been reading his posts, and watching his videos, for several years now, and I can conclusively state that Idaholewis seems to have the same intuitive ability to read the conditions at long range that those other men had.

Which is to say, that he does not NEED to know all of the esoteric reasons that effect a bullet's flight, because his extensive practice at long range, his intuitive understanding of his equipment, and the ability to make corrections on the fly based upon the previous shot, and his knowledge of shooting; allow him to do many of the same things in his "Human Calculator", ie. his brain, that a spotter, a ballistics calculator, a range card, a range finder, a spotting scope, and a high-tech variable power riflescope do on a sniper team.

Which is not to say that he probably couldn't benefit from knowing what a modern sniper knows, after all, knowledge is power.

But, to put him down, and to demean his accomplishments, just because he doesn't know something that you know, is, in my opinion, the worst kind of arrogance.

As often as Idaholewis shoots, he is still a PART TIME shooter. He doesn't get to shoot the thousands of hours that a Marine, SEAL, or ARMY sniper gets to practice, before they ever take a 1,200 yard shot at a human target.

So, I say BRAVO to Mr. Lewis. I think all of his 600-plus yard shots, with 19th Century peep sights, utilizing a modern 4140CM steel barrel, in a 30-plus year old wooden stock, and using a percussion cap fired by a 30-plus year old lock; should be COMMENDED!!!! Period.

amen!!! i totally agree with what you just said about idaholewis. he is a great shot with incredible talent!!!!!!!

 

[R.J.Bruce]

And, another thing, he has figured out all of what he knows on his own, basically. He has had advice and encouragement from the folks at Buffalo Arms Company, but he has not had a mentor standing right next to him on his journey to teach him how not to make mistakes.

The fact that he has progressed so far, and so fast, is a testament to his ability to read information out of a book, or off the internet, and then transfer it to his shooting. I am sure that he has made a lot of mistakes, but to be able to make such incredible long range shots with what is essentially a mixture of off the shelf current, and 30-plus year old Thompson Center technology, is just stunning.

The final thing to his credit is his willingness to share everything he has learned with others in the muzzleloading community. That shows his true character. He is a good man.

 

[M. De Land]

In my lifetime I have been privileged to witness several incredible marksmen shoot. One thing they all had in common was that, by today's standards, they were either untrained in long distance shooting, or had WWII, Korean War, or Vietnam War level training as Marine marksmen, or Army snipers.

I have been reading his posts, and watching his videos, for several years now, and I can conclusively state that Idaholewis seems to have the same intuitive ability to read the conditions at long range that those other men had.

Which is to say, that he does not NEED to know all of the esoteric reasons that effect a bullet's flight, because his extensive practice at long range, his intuitive understanding of his equipment, and the ability to make corrections on the fly based upon the previous shot, and his knowledge of shooting; allow him to do many of the same things in his "Human Calculator", ie. his brain, that a spotter, a ballistics calculator, a range card, a range finder, a spotting scope, and a high-tech variable power riflescope do on a sniper team.

Which is not to say that he probably couldn't benefit from knowing what a modern sniper knows, after all, knowledge is power.

But, to put him down, and to demean his accomplishments, just because he doesn't know something that you know, is, in my opinion, the worst kind of arrogance.

As often as Idaholewis shoots, he is still a PART TIME shooter. He doesn't get to shoot the thousands of hours that a Marine, SEAL, or ARMY sniper gets to practice, before they ever take a 1,200 yard shot at a human target.

So, I say BRAVO to Mr. Lewis. I think all of his 600-plus yard shots, with 19th Century peep sights, utilizing a modern 4140CM steel barrel, in a 30-plus year old wooden stock, and using a percussion cap fired by a 30-plus year old lock; should be COMMENDED!!!! Period.

It was a spectacular hit, just not consistently repeatable unless you factor in wind and mirage. The setting for the hit may or may not be right for the next shot 30 seconds later without being on a scope and knowing what your looking at. If there was no condition read at the trigger break then there is no reference for the next shot. Ask any one who competes at mid and long range and they will tell you the same thing.
I think your bullet is called the Money bullet from what it looks like. If so I've corresponded and talked on the phone with the guy who designed it (Dan Theordore) who has passed now some six years ago. It is a very popular long range bullet that Buffalo Arms sells !
I think you have the makings of a fine long range shot but your handicapping yourself if you don't learn to read wind and mirage and you can't see it with the naked eye. It takes a spotting scope slightly out of focus at the target to see wind vector and speed.