100 yards vs 200 yards

[coloradoclyde]

One other thing I've notice over the years...
200 yards is often a problematic distance on paper....

I suggest skipping 200 and going right to 300 or 500 yards and see how your gun groups...

 

[cannonball1]

Colo., I have never been into that. I did have a person at the range give me a speed with 90 grains of powder at 1345 FPS. I am at the mercy of a person who might have one at the range. Guess I'll have to purchase a chronograph. I've spent all my life with the slow twist stuff and this is(was) all new to me, but I'm learning fast. I might try shooting at 300 yards. Good suggestion.

 

[fleener]

It is a common thought that the bullets are going into the subsonic speed at around 300 yards. I have nothing to back this up, just what I have been told.

Based on everything to date, if I were to guess I would say that your rate of twist is too slow for your bullet length.

Can you buy some GG bullets and give them a try?

Fleener

 

[cannonball1]

Fleener, You may be right, but some of the shooters I have talked to seem to think I'm about right. I have purchased different longer bullets and that does not seem to be the answer. I am going to exhaust different power charges first. I am using a 400 grain bullet and the "Greenhill Formula" suggests 380 grain bullet. I will probably try that next and then go to a GG bullet as you suggest.

Ya' know really a three inch group at 200 yards isn't really that bad if I can conquer the middle of the day stuff. What would a really good PP black powder gun do at 200 yards? In other words what can I realistically shoot for?

 

[fleener]

I have test targets from a .45 cal Alex Henry reproduction, 1.75" group, 3 shots at 200 yards with peep sights.

I have a scoped ML in .45 that at 200 yards I have 0.50" 3 shot group at 200 yards.

My rifles have 1 in 18 twist.

fleener

 

[cannonball1]

I am steady and especially with the lead sled. This means to me that I need to add 1" for old age eyes and shoot for that. Thanks

 

[cannonball1]

I finally made it out to the shooting range. I changed my load to a double rap parchment paper. The kind you would use in an oven. Still the 80 grains of powder. I shot seven shots, five of them were in a 1 3/4" group. I have not changed anything else I have mentioned on this topic except the paper. The reason I went to the parchment, it gave me a snugger fit. Sad part about it is that the two shots that expanded the group to 4" were shots in the middle of the series. By the way I weighed the bullets to make sure they were the same.

A inch or so of it could be my shooting, but with the sled I don't think it would be more.

Using the Buffalo Swagged Bullets is this an expected processing of paper patch shooting to have one or more out of the range a person would like? I would really like to hear some insight of your experiences.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm sorry to have made reference to shooter skills being an issue.
I'll bow-out of all further comments on your quest for accuracy with just one last,,
Sometimes people can't see the forest because the trees are blocking the view.

If a scope like this is off it would be off at all distances and at a 100 yards it is great. Please expand on where I am wrong with this assumption?

I'm at that point also.
Even a multi-thousand dollar scope can get "off". As I suggested it may be mounting, not the scope that is the problem.
No offense, but your apparent refusal to be open minded on this question hinders us from trying to help you. :surrender: Good luck.

 

[cannonball1]

I will try and stay above the fray of your comments and will admit to being a little hard-headed at times. I have been told by some who really know the COMPLETE situation with this scope. ALL say that if that particular scope is off at 200 yards it will also be off at 100 yards(1" groups).

On the second part of your comment relates to my shooting situation. I have the gun all but sand bagged in. The cross hairs are clear with the target and maybe I am doing something wrong. However, here is the kicker, I just took out my in-line Omega out the next day and shot a 1 3/4" group at 100 yards and a 3 1/4" group at the same range at the same target with the same lead sled. So there you have it from one old hard-headed turd to two other hard-headed gents.

By the way I have had a lot of really good positive help and inform from a lot of good people both here and other sources.

 

[cannonball1]

That 3 1/4" group was at 200 yards.

 

[nhmoose]

I think wind and lack of knowledge shooting with it. What flags were out what were they doing and what did you do with that info?

 

[cannonball1]

It was early in the morning and there did not seem to be any detectable wind, but that is certainly something I need to do at different yardages to the 200 yard target. Thank you

 

[nhmoose]

No flags means no idea on the wind you have to put out flags .

1st 10 feet out
2nd 25 yards
3rd 50 yards
4th 100 yards

Note the first flag affects the most but by watching and remembering the flag condition will show what is happening.

Matches are won by reading the wind same as groups are made.

 

[Zonie]

As cannonball1 is shooting at 200 yards and the effects of the winds beyond 100 yards will have the most effect on his bullets trajectory, I suggest he skip the 10 feet, 25 and 50 yard flags and if he has only 4 flags, put them at 75 yards, 120 yards, 150 yards and 180 yards.

One thing is for certain though. Any flags is better than none.

 

[nkbj]

cannonball1,
Are you sure that your bullet isn't on the cusp of instability?
Is your bullet design on the cusp of loosing adequate physical stability under the thrust conditions you are subjecting it too?

 

[cannonball1]

cannonball1,
Are you sure that your bullet isn't on the cusp of instability?
Is your bullet design on the cusp of loosing adequate physical stability under the thrust conditions you are subjecting it too?

I hope not, but at this point the only thing I can do is go by those who know or seem to know. That is the point I am thinking and hope I can find the right paper patch combination for the Buffalo Bullet I using. It is for paper patches and is a .442 bullet-400 grain bullet. I guess I am looking for the quick ultimate cure and it is not coming. I might even be forced to try a regular bullets or even a sabot bullet. I did raise the scope to 500 yards and placed a shot in some dirt right where I expected it to go. At least what I could see thru the smoke. What I am striving for now is a 3" group at 200 yards.

 

[nhmoose]

Sorry Zonie I disagree. The flags closest to the firing line always effect the ball the most as they have the longest time to affect it.

Learning wind it helps to have a mentor, think a bit why would the wind of the same at 150 yards affect the shot more than the one at 10 yards. Answer it does not.

When I shot competition the first flag was king the others helped to get the same condition for each shot. If the one at 10 was usually 1/2 up I would never shoot when it was full up. When the one at 50 yards was up that was when to take the shot unless one of the others was totally out of place for the first shot. Those two were more important than the further out ones as the ball was affected longer.

The total of all flags condition the same will make the small groups. CONSISTANCY is what you are trying for no matter the wind as windage can be dialed different.

Teaching wind is hard to explain without shooting to show what happens bookworms or not.

 

[Zonie]

Please read my comment made in this topic back on page one.

Here's a link to it if you missed it
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...tid/304857/post/1641713/fromsearch/1/#1641713

As we all know, a bullet/ball is going much slower after it has traveled over 100 yards than it is at the muzzle or 10 yards downrange.

This slower bullet/ball speed allows a crosswind more time to push the bullet/ball off course and it does just that.

To visualize this, imagine a ball that travels thru a distance of say, 10 yards at 1600 feet/second.
It would take .0188 seconds to go that 10 yards so the crosswind will only have .0188 seconds to push it off course. (.0188 is just about 19 thousandths of a second).

Now, if the same ball was traveling at just 500 feet per second, it would take it 0.66 seconds (660 thousandths of a second) to travel the same 10 yards.

That would give the same crosswind 35 times more time to push the ball off course during those 10 yards of flight.

As you will find if you read my earlier post, this is not theory.
The roundball ballistics program and the lessons learned by long range shooters bears it out.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Is the nipple shot out?

 

[cannonball1]

I have three that I have been using. None of the holes seem overly big. Is it obvious when they are?

In the future I will be ordering a platinum one.