100 yards vs 200 yards

[necchi]

I am not the greatest shot in the world, but with a scope and lead sled it is not my shooting - IT IS THE GUN OR LOAD.

With all respect,
I believe you need to re-think this statement.
There's no mechanical reason the rifle should open up to over 8" at 200.

Even with the sled,, the shooter has to shoulder and grip the rifle and squeeze the trigger. The sled, like many other means of bench support, just helps the shooter maintain a somewhat similar position with each shot.
Being open to the idea that the shooter needs as much tuning and training as the rifle and load is what turns a shooter and his rifle into a winning combination is real.

If in all cases it was just the rifle,, then every man in the military would be a 1000yrd shooter.
But that's not real is it?

When your looking down that scope, can you see your heartbeat?

 

[cannonball1]

I beg to differ. I have a scope, I have a lead sled, I have a set trigger, I am shooting the same way that I shoot at 100 yards (1" groups), the target is clear, I am steady and mainly I have other guns I shoot the same way and know my ability.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you are determined the scope is not part of the problem, ignore this post.
If you are open to possibilities, I suggest you remove the scope, use a proper tool to polish the inside of the rings, same thing to make sure the scope is absolutely in alignment with the bore and carefully remount the scope. Or take to another dedicated long range shooter/gunsmith and let him do it. Mounting a scope is not always a quick easy task. And, BTW, light winds at 100 yards or more in the middle of the day are not always easy to detect.

 

[cannonball1]

If you are determined the scope is not part of the problem, ignore this post.
If you are open to possibilities.

I'm certainly open, but with this scope the cross hairs are fixed. It is a 32" Malcolm Hi-Lux and the mounts would be the only adjustable variable from 100 yards and the rear adjustment is tight. That is the first thing I checked and I went on to check all of the other mount screws. If a scope like this is off it would be off at all distances and at a 100 yards it is great. Please expand on where I am wrong with this assumption?

 

[necchi]

I'm sorry to have made reference to shooter skills being an issue.
I'll bow-out of all further comments on your quest for accuracy with just one last,,
Sometimes people can't see the forest because the trees are blocking the view.

 

[cannonball1]

That last sentence was uncalled for.

I'm really serious: If you are using the same bench, same everything, no wind, the scope does not adjust nor move, and both yardages are in focus, why does the 100 yard target = 1" and the 200 yard target does not. What could the reasons be - ME. Maybe, but I have shot enough to know it is doubtful, under the conditioned I have just described.

 

[slowballer]

Here is an idea, why not shoot both ranges at the same time? in other words, shoot a tissue paper target at 100 yards with another target beyond at 200 yards. if the 100 yard group is 1" and the 200 yard paper shows an 8" group then the responses to you query will likely focus on the gun and load. If the groups at 200 are closer to 2", then you know where you need to start. :idunno:

 

[cannonball1]

That is what I did this last time out, except I did not rotate shots. I shot 4 shots at the 100 yard target (the first being the cleaner shot) and 1" group excluding the cleaner shot. 3 more shots at another 100 yard target and 1" group. .then I shot 10 shots at the 200 yard target and shot an additional 5 shots to see if I could better my 10 shot group and I could not. With this same gun I was stringing shots vertically at one time only to find out a temporary board that I had placed under the front legs of my leadsled had created the problem. That issue was corrected with permanent spacers under the front legs. I can think of only one thing, that being I opened a new box of buffalo bullets of the same size as the others used.

 

[Zonie]

Vertical stringing indicates a change in muzzle velocity.

Horizontal stringing indicates a crosswind (assuming the scope rings are tight).

In either case, the effect will be more noticeable at the longer 200 yard distance not just because the distance is longer.

Logic would say a 200 yard group can be expected to double the size it would have been at 100 yards but because the bullet is traveling more slowly as it passes the 100 yard distance, winds, both horizontal and vertical have a longer period of time to do their mischief to the bullet flight path.

I don't have a ballistics program that calculates trajectories for bullets but by using my roundball program and putting in a weight of 400 grains and a 5 mile an hour crosswind, it does show this "slowing down" effect.
(The program thinks the bullet is a hemisphere at the nose and rear but additional length adding up to 400 grains weight is between the hemispheres.)

The caliber was .442. The muzzle velocity I used was 1500 fps.

At 100 yards, the crosswind caused the bullet to move 2.4 inches off the point of aim.

At 200 yards, the same crosswind caused the bullet to move 9.3 inches off the point of aim.

The slower flying bullet over that 100 to 200 yard distance moved 6.9 inches further off of the initial flight path.

A 5 mile an hour wind is barely perceptible to a person and might easily be overlooked.

Also, just because the wind isn't blowing at the shooting bench doesn't mean it's not blowing at a fairly good clip 100 or 140 yards downrange.

 

[fleener]

when you load, do you push your wad/s down with the range rod first then the bullet? If not, try that.

If you do that already, how does it feel when you load the bullets? Do they seem to load at the same resistance?

Are you SURE you are not pushing through the paper?

I have offered this before and I will offer it again, I think you should try sizing your bullets.

I would also try a grease groove bullet.


Fleener

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Also, just because the wind isn't blowing at the shooting bench doesn't mean it's not blowing at a fairly good clip 100 or 140 yards downrange.

Yes indeed, I've seen folks at long range matches, where the shooter has a time limit per shot..., and one fellow I saw waited, and waited, and waited, and since I was a kid at the time, I asked a bystander what the shooter was waiting on...,

I was told, "He's waiting for the wind do die down". Now where we were, and were the shooter was lying down, there wasn't a breath of wind, BUT the shooter could apparently see something on the ground along the flightpath to the target that made him wait until he was almost out of time, before he fired.

LD

 

[cannonball1]

UPDATE: This is getting to be an obsession. This morning bright and early I hit the range. No wind and cool. I shot a 3" group at 200 yards. I will concede 1" to my age, but no more. In my eyes the rest is gun and weather conditions and also a combination that can be improved. Remember I am shooting a lead sled. It is almost like being in a vise. Fleener, yes I am seeding the wad with pressure, then snugging the bullet against the wad.

Now to back up a little. Two things I have changed, first being last night I remembered I had opened a new box of swagged buffalo bullets and had used about ten of them. They appeared to have a slight sticky film on them so I cleaned with both acetone and soap and water. Next I increased my powder to 80 grains. The next time I shoot it is going to be in the middle of a hot day. I would like to see any influence that has. So far I had not been able to group during that time. Probably is a coincidence, and hopefully these changes will do the trick and I can fine-tune the process and meet my expectations.

 

[George]

I've never done any shooting like this with muzzleloaders, so I don't quite understand your sighting and aiming situation, Will you please explain how you aim at 100 and 200? You describe crossed lines on the large target, do you shoot at the junction? Where do the bullets strike in relation to your point of aim? Are you just shooting for group, or are you intending to hit a certain spot on the target? If the latter, what's the difference in your sight picture at 100 and 200?

Thanks for the education.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Spence,.....He's using a scope.

 

[George]

Yes, I know he's using a scope. He still has to aim, where does he point it? :haha:

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Good question.....and the same factors that affect iron sights also affect scopes at distance...One still needs a proper sight picture....

IMO...using a scope and lead sled isn't anywhere close to marksmanship....

I use to shoot a 9mm pistol at 200 yards...no scopes or mechanical rests....I could hit a soda can 9 out of 10 times.....Although I did shoot from a creedmore position....

 

[cannonball1]

First off I am shooting groups. Once the scope is set for a certain yardage I shoot for groups. The rear scope mount adjusts similar to a adjustable peep sight. For those of you who want to see the period looking scope I am using, search the internet engine for Malcolm long scope. Either Montana Creations or Hi-Lux Malcolm long scope. I am using the Malcolm long hi-lux. I get my "trajectory app" off the cell phone where I have everything entered: weight of the bullet, ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity, etc. and rise the rear sight with the number of ticks it tells me. Cool huh!! I am sure - not to you gong buckskinners, but I was one of you until that day they made any scope legal to hunt with in Utah. Love this gun for BP, and love my inline that shoots 209 powder, but I would go back to the traditionals in a minute if they would outlaw all this modern stuff. Know of a fellow who purchased and had rebuilt, to the tune of $6000 A BP muzzleloader inline to shoot one mile+.

 

[nhmoose]

This thread has gone beyond this forum scopes, center fires. Need to be deleted IMHO

Wanting 1 " groups or 1 minute at 200 yards at the best is in the big time heavy bench guns yes using scopes. Expecting this from Iron sighted ML GOOD LUCK I competed in line shoots for 20 + years never happen unless a 1 time wonder.

Don't mention modern guns, mine will do 1 minute at 300 and much better but they are not Muzzle Loaders and beyond the scope of our forum so who cares.

 

[cannonball1]

By the way,to your question, the cross-hairs line up both ways with the target regardless of your yardage. The back of the scope keeps getting higher 8.8 clicks, 20 clicks per inch with a muzzle bullet speed of 1200FPS.
POINT OF INTEREST FOR SOME: I have a friend, who just passed away, and had gone to the rendezvous with we over the years. He was really upset when I purchased a In-Line Omega ML. Then he really got upset when I put the scope on this 24" twist side hammer traditional gun I made. I sure he has forgiven me by now. I am sure some of you out there feel the same way about all this hi-falutin' stuff. I certainly love the challenge.

 

[cannonball1]

Moose, What are you talking about? This is not me being a good shot. This is all about the gun and what it will do. It is not an in-line. It is a Hawken looking side hammer gun, with a 1850 looking Malcom scope! It is all black powder! It is all Muzzleloader! It is all about how good the gun will shoot up to 500 yard! If that group is as big as a house -SO BE IT!