100 yards vs 200 yards

[coloradoclyde]

Kudos on choosing the more "traditional" style scope.....I'll admit, I envisioned a Tasco...

 

[George]

First off I am shooting groups. Once the scope is set for a certain yardage I shoot for groups. The rear scope mount adjusts similar to a adjustable peep sight.

Thanks, that answers my question. Sounds like fun shooting. Scopes don't bother me if that's your thing. They are historical pretty early. :grin:

Scloppetaria, Henry Beaufroy, 1808.

"Others again have had a small telescope instead of an after-sight: the accuracy with which shooting may be conducted by this manner, is amazing; for although it required much trouble to arrange the apparatus for any particular distance, yet once done, the bullets would cut repeatedly one into the other, and not infrequently a second shot would so completely pass through a former, as scarcely to leave any additional indentation on the edge. Their liability to be out of order, however, has precluded their frequent introduction; the sight being adjusted by means of two cross wires in the tube of the telescope, similar to those used for transit instruments, the very jar of the piece firing will very soon alter their position, and consequently their accuracy can no longer be depended upon."

Spence

 

[tenngun]

Well I got to say I don't get 3 inch group at 100 yards with my shooting, so I'm am suitably impressed with 3 inchs at 200 yards... although I consider a scope an abomination comparable to macaroni in your chille ....whoops I had mac in my chille tonight, so... ah photo grays in your historic glasses....whoops that's a bad one, ah... rubber non slip soles on your historic shoes.... ah no that's not good ah ...well ah... good shooting yup that's it good shooting,um. So how's the weather in your neck of the woods?

 

[fleener]

If you dont like the thread, dont open it and read it.

Quite simple. Keeps one from getting frustrated.

Fleener

 

[cannonball1]

Vertical stringing indicates a change in muzzle velocity.

Horizontal stringing indicates a crosswind (assuming the scope rings are tight).

In either case, the effect will be more noticeable at the longer 200 yard distance not just because the distance is longer.

Logic would say a 200 yard group can be expected to double the size it would have been at 100 yards but because the bullet is traveling more slowly as it passes the 100 yard distance, winds, both horizontal and vertical have a longer period of time to do their mischief to the bullet flight path.

I don't have a ballistics program that calculates trajectories for bullets but by using my roundball program and putting in a weight of 400 grains and a 5 mile an hour crosswind, it does show this "slowing down" effect.
(The program thinks the bullet is a hemisphere at the nose and rear but additional length adding up to 400 grains weight is between the hemispheres.)

The caliber was .442. The muzzle velocity I used was 1500 fps.

At 100 yards, the crosswind caused the bullet to move 2.4 inches off the point of aim.

At 200 yards, the same crosswind caused the bullet to move 9.3 inches off the point of aim.

The slower flying bullet over that 100 to 200 yard distance moved 6.9 inches further off of the initial flight path.

A 5 mile an hour wind is barely perceptible to a person and might easily be overlooked.

Also, just because the wind isn't blowing at the shooting bench doesn't mean it's not blowing at a fairly good clip 100 or 140 yards downrange.

Zonie, This went right over my head. I noticed the other good comments about the wind, but you put it all in perspective. During the morning there is absolutely no wind. I found days when there was hardly any wind even in the middle of the day, but there was always a slight breeze. I could see a " or two, but 9" with a measly 5 hr wind is unbelievable. When I started shooting this gun the bullet speed was 1345 FPS with 90 grains of powder. Now I am shooting 80 grains, so the speed of course would be less. Very good post, at least for me.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Wind (or the absence of it) is not the only variable in early morning....

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Wanting 1 " groups or 1 minute at 200 yards at the best is in the big time heavy bench guns yes using scopes. Expecting this from Iron sighted ML GOOD LUCK

Well perhaps expecting a 2" "group" at 200 yards with iron sights is beyond what the muzzle loading rifle will do, even when using a machine rest and a very heavy bench rifle, but...,

Under 4" and definitely under 6" at 40 rods (220 yards) was done in the past from 1865 on..., in some cases with early telescopic sights, and in others, iron peep sights.

Some excellent examples of the match rifles of their day, AND the targets where the groups are documented may be found in the book that I previously recommended in a link. :wink:

LD

 

[hanshi]

Two or three inches at 200 yards is, IMHO, great accuracy. I have yet to put 5 shots in a group that small at 100 yards.

 

[nhmoose]

Peep sights can be considered iron sights.

Horace Warner shot some fine small groups at that distance and set RECORDS. Common I do not think so.

I saw Ken Bresien at a Ft Ty shoot break that record set by Horace Warner that was in the late 1990's. By the way he did it with Horace Warner's rifle that originally set the record.

Expecting 1 minute groups at 200 with an iron sighted rifle with a round ball or picket bullet or conical of the time will be extraordinary.

Please do not think it possible with 90-95% of any modern muzzleloader. In fact until the 1970's it was not to be expected with any sporter maybe with full out bench rifles of the unmentionables. Heck in the 1960's one craved the almost impossible 1/2 minute group. [real group is 10 shots, not the three or five some take as grail]

 

[Black Hand]

I have put all the information on another topic, but I will give the information again. You guys out there have helped a lot to get where I'm at. I am shooting a 45 cal. 1 in 42" twist made by Oregon Barrel Co., 70 grains of BP, .442 PP bullet (400 Grains), cleaning after every shot. I have got to the point I have perfected the patch and shot at 100 yards.

Here's the problem: At 100 yards I can consistently shoot that 1" group, but at 200 yards I cannot keep them in a 8" group. I am not the greatest shot in the world, but with a scope and lead sled it is not my shooting - IT IS THE GUN OR LOAD. Help please!!! Give me some ideas. Thanks

Please pardon my bluntness:
A muzzleloader is NOT a centerfire and you should not expect centerfire accuracy at ranges far outside a muzzloader's capabilities. If you had said 50 and 100 yards, we'd have something to work with, but 200 yards is a little excessive. Yes, I understand some can shoot that far, but in general, most muzzleloader shots are less than 100 yards...

 

[BrownBear]

My experience with precision long range muzzleloader shooting consists entirely of sitting on my hiney right behind the line while friends shot 1,000 yard benchrest. Great big old bench guns.

They could all produce the kind of accuracy you're seeking at "only" 200 yards. But they all had one thing in common-

False muzzles to assure perfect bullet alignment going into the bore. Most (and maybe all) also shot 2-piece swaged bullets paper patched at the muzzle with longitudinal crossed strips of paper. The false muzzles were even lightly grooved to help align the paper strips as the bullet passed into and through the false muzzle.

Fifty years between then and now, so I'm certainly missing some details. But for the kind of accuracy you're seeking, I'd sure do some research on how the big boys with the big guns do it.

 

[cannonball1]

Black Hand, I messed up on my quote you sited. It is a 24" twist and Bear I have been reading on everything I can find. I am not after the impossible, just after every little tid-bit of information I can glean from those who have been shooting paper patch bullets and are willing to share. I know what is possible and finding out what is impossible. At this point I know 3", four shot groups are possible. The question is how close can this gun get at 500 yards, but no sense in that until I have mastered the ultimate "LOAD" for this gun and believe me I have learned a lot from you bloggers.

 

[cannonball1]

That 3" group is at 200 Yards.

 

[Black Hand]

I can surmise that at that distance, even small differences in the sight picture will make large changes in POI. The Ultimate Load will be whatever proves to be most accurate at your desired range(s).

 

[Artificer]

Most of my experience with long and detailed studies of group sizes has been with unmentionable rifles, but I know that a rifle that will fire 10 rounds into a 2 1/2" group at 300 yards is actually firing a smaller group than one third that size at 100 yards, even with those more aerodynamic and faster bullets. IOW, if you want a 2" group at 200 yds., then the rifle has to be capable of less than a 1" group at 100 yds.

You will find your group sizes open up from morning to middle of the day, just because the brighter light will cause your eye to see the target differently. This is described in long range shooting as "lights up, sights up" or "sun up, bullet up, sun down, bullet down." What that means is the brighter light during the middle of the day will usually require you aim higher to hit the same place as in the morning. If you shoot long enough into the afternoon/early evening when the light is less, then you go back to the morning sight adjustment. Overcast or cloudy days will also cause a change in the point of impact, unless you adjust for it.

Now, none of the above will completely explain going from a 1 inch group at 100 yards to an 8 inch group at 200, though.

Is your scope adjustable power or fixed power of magnification? If adjustable, it is common after adjusting the scope up or down that the point of impact will change as you increase or decrease the magnification and the groups may open up or close down as well.

Gus

 

[cannonball1]

Gus, Thank you for that very much needed in-sight. On the other posts I stated that the scope is a 6 power, fixed, 3/4" tube 32" long + a sun screen 1850 Malcolm, and the correction for yardage comes thru raising the adjustment on the rear mount. That means you are always looking at the cross on the reticles regardless of the yardage.

I have increased the powder to 80 grains and got an acceptable early morning 200 yard group. Now to shoot it in the middle of the day when there is very little or no wind.

 

[Col. Batguano]

One other thing to be aware of, is, that the loads that give the best accuracy at 100 yards are not always the same as those that will give the best accuracy at other ranges. I've seen this several times with .22 SV ammo.

Daily variations in atmospherics (temperature, barometric pressure, humidity not to mention wind, or changes in altitude) will make a difference too.

 

[fleener]

How is the scope with parallax?

When you have it in the lead sled, and you are not touching or moving the rifle, and you move your head around does the cross hairs stay where they are or do they appear to move around when pointed down range at 200 yards or farther.

fleener

 

[cannonball1]

col., I am sure finding that out.

Fleener, I know what you are talking about because one of my other guns variable scope does that. That one was a cheaper line of scopes, but this scope does NOT do that. The target stays in position, even if your field of view is off center. Early in the morning with no noticeable air movement and it shoots great pretty darn good.

I was even wondering if in the heat of the sun on the barrel, could be affected by the barrel keys or something like that.

 

[coloradoclyde]

If your goal is merely to shoot a better group at 200 yards....Try a shorter/lighter bullet...or try increasing you velocity....
Most likely, your problem is destabilization of the bullet at subsonic velocities...

Have you chronographed your bullet at 100 yards?...200 yards?