100 yards vs 200 yards

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Zonie, My computer program shows at 200 yards a 4.84 drift with a 5 mile an hour wind with this bullet at 90 degrees. Yours showed over 8. drift. Is your calculation figured with a round ball? Also you indicated vertical may indicate velocity while horizontal may indicate wind. This 8" group is in a circle type group.
 
cannonball1 said:
I have three that I have been using. None of the holes seem overly big. Is it obvious when they are?

In the future I will be ordering a platinum one.

Uh-oh! This easily could be part of your problem.

For accurate shooting, it is best to replace the nipple every year at the beginning of the shooting season and verify it will produce the same groups as the last nipple in your rifle. It does not happen very often, but sometimes a new nipple may be a bit larger in hole size and still open up your group. You will most likely not be able to shoot enough to seriously affect a nipple every year, but it is still best to start with a fresh one every year to ensure the rifle will shoot to top performance. Besides, nipples are not that expensive. I also strongly suggest you get rid of the used nipple/s so they don't find their way back into the rifle later on and always have a couple of new nipples on hand. Now this advice is for Ampco Bronze Nipples and they wear out sooner than Platinum Lined Nipples. Not sure how often you need to automatically replace the Platinum lined ones. Maybe others more familiar with that will chime in?

Now as an example of this, I was the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team the mid/late 90's and we had a Team meeting in the winter or spring before going to the 1998 World Championships at the NRA Headquarters. I had already been to the 1996 World Championships as the Team Armorer and had a number of years experience at being a Military Armorer for National Competition and Championships (though with unmentionable rifles), so I had a number of suggestions to be passed on to the Team Members. One of the most important ones was about putting a new nipple in each percussion gun and ensuring it would keep good accuracy at the beginning of the year or at least well enough ahead of the World Championships, so a bad nipple would not hurt their scores. One Team Member Lady, who was at that meeting, did not take my advice.

Fast forward to August of 1998 and we are at the initial practice days at the Range in Wedgnock, UK, for the World Championships. I had some tools laid out on the picnic bench I had to work on and that including all kinds of repro and original nipple wrenches. In the Mid Afternoon and after those hours of practice shooting, none of my Team Members were having any problems. I wanted to go to the "Arms Faire" Huge Tent, but was not going to leave my Team Members while they were shooting. Well, finally a few Team Members finished up, went to the Arms Faire and came back. Two Team Members offered to stay by my tools in case another Team Member had problems and one would come get me should any problems come up. Sure enough I had only been in the Arms Faire Tent for 10 minutes or so, and one of the Team Members told me the same Lady was having problems and was in a bit of a panic.

Now, this Lady was an experienced Team Member and she had won Gold Medals at earlier competitions, so I raced back to the "work bench." She and her husband both were long time friends of mine, so the first thing I did was calm her down and asked questions to see what was wrong. She was shooting an original Under Hammer Percussion Rifle for practice in the 100 Meter Prone Women's Match. She had already won Gold at least once or twice with that rifle and in that event in earlier World Championships.

OK, so I looked at the nipple and was frankly surprised how bad of condition it was in. She had no idea what size nipple it took and did not have a spare nipple. I was afraid it was an original thread that I would have to size to fit, if possible, but fortunately someone had already rethreaded it for a common 1/4 x 28 TPI Nipple. OK, so I replaced the nipple and checked the rifle over thoroughly and found nothing else wrong.

Now while I was working/checking the rifle, she was still in a bit of a tither and put her glass/plastic vials of gun powder with weighed individual charges on a support board for the Tarp flap behind me, to count how many vials she had remaining. VERY fortunately the sun came out behind those vials and it was easy to see those vials did not all contain the exact same powder charge. So I asked her if she might have grabbed some of the vials for one of her or her husbands' other guns? She did not know. OK, so I used an adjustable measure to see what the charges were and at least she knew how much powder was supposed to be in the vials. She could not say if she had shot some of the different powder charge vials or not. So I took the vials that were not correct away from her, told her I would keep them until she finished firing and said we most likely identified her problems. She had a very good practice session after that.

OK, so after she finished practice and had her confidence restored with good shooting, I asked her when was the last time she had replaced the nipple in that rifle? She told me another Team Mate had looked over the rifle the summer before and said the nipple was still good, so she had not replaced it since. (I talked to him about it that night and he had suggested she change the nipple after that practice session the year before.) Anyway, because we were such long time and good friends, I asked her if she remembered me bringing the subject of a new nipple up at the meeting at NRA HQ? She said she did remember, but just did not think it was that important........ I told her the NEXT meeting we held, the first point I was going to make was "Listen to your Armourer!!!!"

Gus
 
BTW, I strongly concur with mounting range flags to keep an eye on the wind and that is even at 50 yards with a ML Rifle, let alone 200 yards.

Gus
 
My experience with nipples burning out in a rifle like this is that I will have large unexplained vertical drops in bullets.

If you want to be serious about this, I would get a platinum nipple. My buddy Rick Weber will make you up one, or you can buy one from Buffalo Arms. Rick makes them for BA.

I had Rick reline 4 nipples for me recently as they were burning out. Also got 2 new ones.

fleener
 
This discussion reminds me of asking how fast twist flinters have been seen to hold up at longer ranges.
 
cannonball1 said:
GoodCheer said:
cannonball1,
Are you sure that your bullet isn't on the cusp of instability?
Is your bullet design on the cusp of loosing adequate physical stability under the thrust conditions you are subjecting it too?

I hope not, but at this point the only thing I can do is go by those who know or seem to know. That is the point I am thinking and hope I can find the right paper patch combination for the Buffalo Bullet I using. It is for paper patches and is a .442 bullet-400 grain bullet. I guess I am looking for the quick ultimate cure and it is not coming. I might even be forced to try a regular bullets or even a sabot bullet. I did raise the scope to 500 yards and placed a shot in some dirt right where I expected it to go. At least what I could see thru the smoke. What I am striving for now is a 3" group at 200 yards.


Back when I was a regular at Friendship I used to set up my spotting scope and just watch the slug gun shooters. Their special kind of ml shooting was, and probably still is, the ultimate in proving the potential from an ml rifle and bp.
But, the results were also often puzzling and, for the shooters, very frustrating. Using some great rifles, top quality scopes and a scientific approach to bullet/paper patch selection, powder, charge/mantra and alignment with the stars, it was not unusual for a shooter to go from one hole groups at 100 yards to buckshot scatter at 200 yards. Those were not happy shooters when that happened. :cursing: At this point, it will be hard to help you from the keyboard. Test your components like type of lead, bullet style, paper patch, lube, etc. And, don't let yer wifey tie knots in her apron when ye are shooting. :v
 
Two of my nipples only have about 25 shots thru them and the other one has about 50 shots thru it and I only use one nipple per setting. Physically I cannot see any difference in those and the new ones. Is is apparent when they are burned out?
 
I am back from the shooting range. Here is the latest: I keep thinking the 450 grain bullet will shot straighter than the 400 grain. It does not! I tried several different paper patches and couldn't get better than a 9" group. The 400 grain with double wrap onion skin and double wrap parchment paper gave me about a 5" group. I then tried single wrap 24 lb rag paper. I shot a three shot 2 1/4" group. The wind started to pick up so I quit. Whether it be a fluke - We shall see.
 
I was talking to a member of my gun club about long range shooting. He is experienced with long range shooting of conical bullets. He has seen and experienced tight groups at 100 yards and huge patterns at 200. Its a common observation that paper patched conical bullets that are paper patched and use modest powder charges of 80 grains perform just as you are experiencing.

Long range shooting requires lots of powder and high muzzle velocity. Perhaps a load of 120 grains of 2fg or more.
 
I understand what you are saying, but are you sure they are talking Black Powder? I would not go beyond 90 grains with a 400 grain bullet with my 1 in 24 twist barrel. Could someone else give me opinion(s) please. I was always told 70 to 90 grains was enough for long range shooting this type of gun.
 
cannonball1 said:
I was always told 70 to 90 grains was enough for long range shooting this type of gun.
FWIW and I have no experience of shooting your twist rifling or weight bullet... with .45 cal., 1 in 18 twist and 550 grain paper patched bullet I have been using 95 grains of Swiss No. 3 (FFg) at 1200 yards.

Here in the UK in the MLAGB National Rifle Championships we use the same targets as the full-bore (high power) centre-fire rifle shooters. This has a 3.5" dia. bull, which scores 5. The MLAGB National Record is 47, and that was set 5 years ago. Shooting is prone, with aperture sights and just a two point sling for support. That's the best I can offer for consideration of accuracy to aspire to at that range.

David
 
David Minshall said:
.... Here in the UK in the MLAGB National Rifle Championships we use the same targets as the full-bore (high power) centre-fire rifle shooters. This has a 3.5" dia. bull".....
The target referred to above is for 200 yards. At 1200 it's a bit bigger! :)

The 47 score is for 10 shots.

David
 
I have had bullets that seem accurate and stabilized at 100 but not at 200 and then seem accurate again and stabilized again at 300. After lots of trials I found that some bullet groupings open up near 100 out to 200 and then tighten up as they stabilize. This distance may vary from bullet type to bullet type. Main factors i found were ensuring that the bullet was tight in the bore on the lands and in the groves. Also the bullet type and length also played a role as well. What shoots well in one may not necessarily shoot well in another. You may have to try a few different bullets. It may seem like and never ending quest but you will get there. Good luck
 
I am not disputing your word, and I can see how a bullet may stabilize, but if the group is bad at 200 wouldn't it be off that or more at 300 and beyond.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
Yes, it was black powder.

Grenadier, Took your advise and went to 90 grains of powder and I am using single wrap 24 lb rag computer paper over a plastic wad. At 200 yards I got a five shot 2 1/8" group. My last 6th shot was four inches away, but a slight wind had started. If this continues I think I there and on to 300 yards. Thank you.
 
If you want information on large loads and shooting to 200 yards, with a patched round ball, you might want to consult
The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles by James Forsyth
BTW he is the same Forsyth that came up with Forsyth Rifling for very large patched round ball (like 4 bore and 8 bore) vs. dangerous game.

LD
 
Holy Cow! I started, but I'm not smart enough to read all that. I'm shooting a 45 caliber 400 grain paper patch bullet, not a round ball.
 
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