12L14 Steel for barrels???

[AWsaddles]

I have several MLs with 12L14 steel barrels. I haven't lost any sleep over it. I've handled many of Danny's rifles, shot beside him for years, and heard his opinions. No doubt he builds nice rifles and fowlers. I'll stick with my 12l14 barrels because they are accurate , easy to clean , and have proven themselves to me. I guess next time I shoot I better inform him of the metallurgical properties of my barrel In case he wants to move. :wink:

 

[fleener]

You wrote: I’m sorry, but your point is that a harder to machine steel makes a better barrel?

The point was missed. the only reason that 12L14 is used for ML barrels is that it is easy to machine. Less work and less cost. Not because it is the best steel, or the safest or the most accurate.

Take a look at the numbers for 12L14 vs. other steels used for gun barrels, then make the argument. Show me a steel that is used for gun barrels that is weaker than 12L14. Or you could just stamp your feet (because it is easier) and say that because you have used it for years that it is without a doubt the safest choice.

snapper

 

[Razor62]

Folks, my post was a direct result of concern for what I read on Mr Caywood's website. I did some research and found that my barrel was in fact constructed of 12L14 steel. Armed with this info I put a question out here because I trust the folks who visit this forum to provide me with solid advice. If I had read the earlier thread regarding DOM tubing for barrels I would have found my answer without throwing fuel on this topic again while the coals were still glowing. AT Armakiller's suggestion to check out that thread I found that there was a allot discourse on the topic of 12L14 there in addition to discussion concerning the original question of DOM tubing's suitability for muzzleloading barrels.
I was not aware of the prevalence of this steel in the muzzleloading industry. In fact I could not have told you what type of steel ANY barrel was made of. Thanks to the good folks here I have once again gained the knowledge that I required to make my own decision.
Sorry Jerry but I'm keeping this one. I am no longer concerned about Mr Caywood's claims that I bought myself a potential pipe bomb. That's what this site is all about...People learning from the experience and knowledge of others who've already been down the roads that we're just starting down.
I sincerely appreciate the input of all of you fine people. It's because of your help that I will continue my build confident that I'm building a sound rifle at least where the barrel is concerned.

 

[CrossXstix]

I have a 30 something year old Douglas XX 13/16" .45 barrel on a Lancaster, that for about 25 years or so, I shot 90 grs. of FFF with a .451 ball for a hunting load.

I dropped the loads down, not from hearing lately of possible faulty steel dangers, but with the higher velocity 90 gr. fffg load the .45 ball flatened out like a quarter and stopped on the offside hide not giving a pass through wanted for two bleed out holes. The slower velocity loads seem to expand less retaining a better form for a possible pass through.

For about 20 of those years, down here in Mississippi the deer population was so dense that we were allowed one deer a day with seven of those bucks and the rest does, a year, so to say the least I shot my share.

So back to this barrel of faulty metal in question, it shot quiet a few heavy loads through those years, so I guess either the barrel is OK, or the Good Lord does watch over at least a few of us uneducated or uninformed fools.


X
David

 

[Archie]

12l14 should be very easy to brown compared to the other harder steels.

 

[fleener]

if you were to take a little time and do some real reasearch you would find that 12L14 is leaded free-machining steel. In this steel you can get veins that will weaken your yield strength of the steel. Why use it for a barrel,even for a muzzleloader, if you don't have to. Properties just aren't right.

Leaded steels are NOT reccommended for parts to be welded because of the weak and porous character of the fusion zone thanks to the lead content.

of coarse you can use it and it has been used a lot for ML barrels over the years.

You can not make a valid argument that it is the best or even really good steel for barrels. There are plenty other choice that are safer, better and have a higher yield strength.

snapper

 

[jerrywh]

From my experience it actually is a little harder to brown than some of the others. One thing Is it is harder to do gold work on because of the softness.

 

[jerrywh]

And besides, Bumble bees can't fly either. Thousands and thousands of good 12L14 barrels don't proove anything right?? RIGHT. I have only personally known of two barrels that blew up in the 55 years I have been building muzzle loaders and neither one was made of 12L14. One was so called seamless tubing. The other one was 4140 modern barrel steel. About 30 some years ago some nut blew up a douglas muzzle loading barrel with modern powder. Douglas freaked out and quit making them.
Tell me How many 12L14 barrels can you name that have blown up when properly loaded. I can't name one. We are not talking weatherby here . We are talking flintlocks and percussion guns-- [black-powder]

 

[jamesthomas]

"why would you buy a barrel made from steel that any expert will tell you is not designed for use in a gun?"


Why don't you call up Mr. Hoyt, Getz, Rice, Colerain, Dehaas, Oregon Barrel Company and Long Hammack and tell them that, I'm sure they would be happy to find out that thier barrels arn't any good. And another thing, would you please give us uneducated folks the names of your "Experts". That way we can call them up and ask why they don't recommend 12L14 for muzzleloader barrels. And one more thing show me ONE 12L14 that has blown up under normal operating conditions. Betcha $100.00 you can't.

 

[mattybock]

my old kit hawken has a barrel made of 12L14. It didn't take to my dad's browning method too well.
But my dad's method was to rub liquid cold blue onto it like the dickens until it turned black!


12L14 is just fine for black powder barrels, and so are many other steels. I'd advocate 1018, just because lead in a barrel isn't that historically good. Barrels have been made of bronze and brass, so any steel or iron other than rebar and structural steel is a step up... or at least sideways.

But just so you know, those barrels will go bad if not used. I have seen them turn green and start hanging out around shady raven 25's, so best to go shoot them now.

 

[jdkerstetter]

All right snapper, :surrender: Most of us here have seen all the research and had the debate many times.

You make it sound like we are the ones building the barrels. We're just the end users. Did you go out curse all Ford Explorer drivers when the tires started falling off or all Prius drivers when their cars started running away?

We don't choose to make barrels from 12L14, the manufacturers do....most of them. You say we have choices. Please list those companies that make properly contoured barrels for muzzleloader builders out gun barrel steel. I am particularly interested in swamped and and tapered octagon round barrels.

Thanks, J.D.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Once again JD I must bow to you succinctness and speed of typing I was going to ask the same thing.

 

[okawbow]

Years ago, I built a 62cal hawken with a 12/14 barrel. I proof tested it with 360 grains of 2F and 2 tightly patched .610 round balls. I'm sure that produced more pressure than any normal load.

I've heard that softer steel make a more accurate muzzleloader barrel, because it vibrates less.

I'll keep using mine.

 

[fleener]

I had hoped that a discussion on this topic could take place in a professional and civil manner. For some folks on this forum unfortunately that does not appear to be possible based on the comments on this thread and from private emails received. My comments have been taken out of context and great exaggerations have been made.

Some folks are simply not open to any information on this topic that is not the same as their opinion, and if you are one of those, please don’t read any farther, it is not my intent to get you all worked up. If you have an open mind and are willing to looking at some information I offer the following.

Let me first state that I am not a metallurgist nor am I an engineer. I do however have 20 years of professional experience in reviewing and evaluation of manufacturer’s of cargo tanks and other metal containers constructed of various metals for use in hazardous materials service. I am also trained in ASME boiler and pressure vessel code section VIII for construction of these vessels.

I also do not consider myself as an expert in this area. I have a working knowledge of metals and steel, but nothing close to being an expert. I do work with metallurgist on occasion and over the years have posed this question to them and also to a metallurgist that worked for a major steel mill. Each of them, without hesitation in short said no way would they ever use 12L14 for a ML barrel.

Some of the information that follows comes from the ”˜Metals Handbook” I am not sure why they call it a handbook. It is one of those really big books and is 1,300 pages. I think it must weight 10 lbs. This book is a standard in the metal world and is recognized as one of the best “go to” books on metals of all types.

Measures of machinablility has been defined as a “complex property of a materials that controls the facility with which it can be cut to the size, shape and surface finish required commercially.” 1112 steel is rated at 100%. All other steels are rated above or below this 100% level, the majority falling considerably below. 12L14 is rated at 190%. Its machinability is a direct result of a fine dispersion of lead particles throughout the alloy.
12L14 is considered to be one of the fastest machining bar products produced today.

It is used to maximum advantage for parts where considerable machining is required such as bushings, inserts, couplings and hydraulic hose fittings. With good ductility, these grades are suitable for parts involving bending, crimping or riveting

12L14 is not used for gun barrels due to its strength and toughness, it is used because it is extremely easy to machine and cut the rifling in.

1137 was used by Green Mountain for ML barrels. 1137 is a known gun barrel steel and is considered a low cost, easy machinability and is rated at 160%. Some of the property numbers for 1137 are fairly similar to 12L14, but the overall characteristics are a bit different. My Metals Handbook even addresses the use of this steel for gun barrels.

4140 is/was used by Green Mountain for their bp cartridge barrels
This is one of the chromium, molybdenum, manganese low alloy steels noted for toughness, good torsional strength and good fatigue strength
As with all the low alloy steels forming may be done by conventional methods with the alloy in the annealed condition. These alloys have good ductility, but are tougher than plain carbon steel and thus usually require more force, or pressure, for forming.
Characterized by high strength and good impact properties with good machinability, but low weldability.
The following are properties for some of the common barrel steel used.
12L14
Tensile strength 78,300 PSI, Yield strength 60,200 PSI

1137
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 76,100 PSI

1144
Tensile strength 108,000 PSI, Yield strength 89,900 PSI

4140
Tensile strength 148,000 PSI, Yield strength 95,000 PSI

The above numbers show what the tensile and yield strength for the 4 types of steels listed. The tensile strength gives us some idea on how tough the steel is. However, the standard for determining toughness is the Charpy V-notch test.
Notch toughness is the ability or capacity of a metal to yield plastically under high localized stress, such as might occur at the root of a notch. Notches may be inherent in design or may be the accidental result of tool marks, scratches, voids, minute surface cracks left by grinding, pits etc.
Notch toughness is influenced by the chemical composition and physical properties of the steel. Temperature can have a big impact (no pun intended) on failure of the Charpy V-notch test. As temperature decrease, the amount of energy the piece of steel is able to absorb decreases. This is called transition temperature. Once a piece of steel is at or beyond its transition temperature the toughness decreases rapidly and the ability for it to yield plastically and not fail is greatly decreased.

I am not 100% sure, but it is my understanding that 12L14 has a transition temperature around 70 degrees F. I have never worked professionally with 12L14 steel and have never witnessed or reviewed data for Charpy V-notch testing of it. If anyone has data that supports a different opinion of 12L14 for Charpy V-notch testing I would be interested in that.

I have 3 barrels made by Mark DeHaas and they are 1144. 1144 is not a great or even a good gun barrel steel as the physical properties are concerned. It is better than 12L14, but not by a large degree. These barrels are great for accuracy, simply wonderful and I love them. I can not say enough good things about Mark and his barrels. Several years ago he switched to using 12L14, when I asked him why, he stated for numerous reasons, cost, availability, easy of machining and because that is what many others are using.

If 12L14 was the only choice I had, or the best steel available it would make the decision much easier. However that is not the case in today’s world. As a consumer I can buy barrels from a few makers that are using steels that are recognized by metallurgist and engineers as an appropriate material for a gun barrel.
Do barrels made of 12L14 fail every day? Of coarse not. Have some failed? Of course. Might the failure be as the direct result of something the owner/shooter did that was not intended? Certainly. You ever shoot your ramrod? Not get a ball or bullet on the powder and leave a space? Double load your rifle?

Barrels made from steel that is recognized as good enough for a gun barrel can fail as well, however due to the physical qualities of the steel they have a better safety margin. Just like the ASME tanks that have a safety factor of 4 built into them. They are well built but unfortunately there are still failures.

I have several old shotgun that are ML and bp cartridge with damascus barrels, and I shoot them. The barrels on these guns are certainly not up to the standards for some of the more modern steels that we have available today. I realize that there is a certain risk associated with shooting these old girls. Back in the day that these barrels were made there were different quality as well as it comes to barrels. It is generally known that barrels that are not English barrels may cause one to have some concerns for quality. Belgium barrels are certainly not noted as being the standard of excellence. That does not mean that all barrels made in Belgium are bad barrels, and all English barrels are good. It is my understanding that my Parker 10 ga. hammer gun has Belgium barrels. Apparently that is where the Parker Company contracted to have their barrels made, and they are considered to be of high quality. This is why I try to only buy and use 100 ”“ 150 year old guns from makers with known quality parts, including their barrels. In Greener’s book “The Gun” there is a fairly good section on barrels and construction of them.

Let me be clear, I have never stated that a 12L14 barrel will fail or is likely to fail. What I have stated and will state that 12L14 is not the best readily available steel to be used as barrel material, and if given a choice, I would not knowing own one.

There are exceptions of course. If I had a 12L14 barrel in .32 cal. that was a 1” barrel I would certainly consider that over the same barrel in .54 cal. with a thinner wall thickness.
If you have the choice, why would you pick a barrel that is made from steel that is not recognized by any metallurgist as steel that is appropriate for a barrel? When it came time to buy the barrels for the guns I make I have been buying barrels from makers that use steel that is recognized by the steel industry has being barrel quality. Not because they are more accurate, simply because they are made from steel that is better suited for this purpose. Why would I knowingly use questionable parts for guns I am going to be giving my kids?

If you made it this far and you are still sure I am biggest idiot in the world and violently disagree with what I have stated above if you want to send me personal emails in that regard, go ahead. Most of them are quite humorous.

Like I tell my kids, life is full of decisions’, choose wisely.

snapper

 

[rich pierce]

I'm not sure why this is such a hot topic subject and why we discuss it over and over again. The main points are easy to summarize.

Steels vary in properties that are important in handling the stresses of explosions. Steels that would not be acceptable for modern rifle cartridge barrels are often used for ML barrels because of the ease of machining with them, cost,and other factors like how long the tools last, etc. This makes some people nervous, but not enough to start their own barrel companies. There have been no scientific, controlled, destructive testing studies published that used black powder barrels of same dimensions, same loads, and different steels used for modern ML barrels in a side by side comparison. Especially, there have been no destructive tests comparing any of these modern steels to period barrels of wrought iron. Meanwhile, we can use steel properties data and infer that some alloys available are less likely to fail under abnormal, "accident" loading conditions. Builders can use these properties, among many other factors like quality of machining, accuracy, profiles, availability etc to choose the barrels they use. Buyers are less likely to be informed.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Snapper,

Excuse me if you feel as though I was one of the ones not keeping this debate civil. I don't condone personal attacks though post or PT.

Your post above was good for the uninformed who may be reading this. Much of what you typed and more has been part of this discussion before.

You mention Mark Dehaas. His reputation is very good. Does he do swamped profiles or octagon round?

You mention Green Mountain. They are not expected to produce swamped barrels anytime soon...if ever again.

What are the other choices you keep talking about? Who are they?

For what it's worth, the Belgians made some very superior damascus barrels...as did the English. I hope you have had your barrels NDT'd because if you have done your homework you know that, regardless of the standards to which they were produced originally, much happens within the structure of them over time. Playing with old damasus barrels far excedes the dangers of using modern barrels made from 12L14.

I follow the same advice you give your kids. In this case I feel there has been enough field testing to warrent continued use of 12L14 barrels....and obviously if I would use these barrels I would use ones made of stronger material if they were offered. But as Rich indicated, they just aren't.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Of course the only reason Douglas stayed in business for decades making ml barrels and sold gazzilions of them was that every one blew up on use. Folks had to keep buying more for replacements. :dead:
Pointless discussion. I'm through with this thread.

 

[fleener]

You want choices? or more excuses?

there are numerous places on the web where you can buy your own 3' blank of steel and have it sent to your barrel maker of choice. Sure they might charge you more to make a barrel out of a harder to machine steel. But they certainly would do it. Of coarse your next complaint will be when they charge you more.

snapper

 

[jdkerstetter]

I don't believe I've cast any stones at you. I merely called on you to provide the names of the "choices" we have.

Sure there are cheapskates in every game....perhaps the muzzleloading game even has a higher percentage....but I would appreciate you not making insinuations about what I will and won't do with my wallet.

Sure, like anyone else, I like to get a "good deal", but when spending several hundred dollars on components to build a quality firearm, I personally don't have a problem spending the extra for quality components...it comes back.

Oh, and 3' won't do for a longrifle...4' and even 5' is more like it.

Well, apparently enough people have gotten under your skin to affect your treatment of everybody else. So much for your call for civility.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[George]

As a non-expert totally unqualified to judge the appropriateness of any particular steel for use in gun barrels, I have what seems to me a pragmatic way to make my choices. I ask. I wrote Scott R. Keller at Colerain barrels and asked him what kind of steel they use, today, and he replied: "We use 12L14, have for 22 years and it works fine for muzzleloader barrels." For 22 years. What more do I need to know? Rubber on the road evidence such as that trumps everything I've ever seen written about barrel steels on these boards over a long period of years. I suspect a lot of us feel the same about it.

Spence