1st chain fire

[Bad Karma]

FYI…Zonie in a thread “PSI with black powder” Agrees with the higher number…and higher actually …

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/psi-with-black-powder.29260/

In heavy bullet/large charges? Possibly. A 45/100/525 would be what you’re thinking of here. (You should see what it does to a stainless steel nipple) 30 grains behind a 143 grain ball isn’t going to produce anything near that.

 

[Rfp10000]

In heavy bullet/large charges?

Actually I don’t have a clue .. I was just commenting on my surprise at hearing/seeing such numbers from a couple experienced folks.
I’m used to thinking about compressed air cylinders with 3000-4500 psi and these numbers even the 9000 were a shock .

 

[Bad Karma]

Actually I don’t have a clue .. I was just commenting on my surprise at hearing/seeing such numbers from a couple experienced folks.
I’m used to thinking about compressed air cylinders with 3000-4500 psi and these numbers even the 9000 were a shock .

i can see that. But then compare velocity from air vs. powder. Then agin from blackpowder to,standard smokeless loads. It takes beau coup, pressure to do the work..

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Air can produce good velocity (1100fps or better), but it's limited by your seals, pumps, tanks (those three are what seriously limited Girandoni and other air gun designers until the last 125 years or so), Barrel Length and how long your valve's open.
Black powder produces up to around 38,000 psi peak operating pressures in very heavy loadings (like a 700 grain .50 bullet propelled by 160gr of powder. Pistol loads (like in belt pistols) will be running around 20-26,000 Psi peak for actual service loads. Heavy proof loads might be running 50k (more likely 45k) (not because BP can't produce more, but most proof loadings don't go higher).
Smokeless's peak operating pressures are sub-70,000psi (due to guns having to be built incredibly heavy to take any more), but smokeless is able to produce over 200,000 in a really bad situation.

When it comes to (air and firearms) guns that aren't toys, they are all working at high pressure, high enough to maim or kill you if something goes very wrong. There are video's of guns of all types becoming flying debris on the internet.

 

[Redlemur60]

I have had chain fires from poorly fitting balls. Even a heavily greased with Crisco cylinder mouth did not prevent chain fires. It was not until I went to the 0.380" cast balls in my 36 Navy revolver, that the chain fires were eliminated.

Yup i use 457 for 44s for the same reason,and good fitting caps
And crisco/lube mix over every ball

 

[Redlemur60]

and a big p.s.
Flintlocks dont have this problem!
(They have others)!

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Been using a 50/50 mix of bees wax and beef lard - works great, use on the little felt wads also. Not going to say "never", but will say "not yet" had a chain fire.

 

[springfield art]

I was shooting one of my favorites today, Uberti 1851 Navy made in 1965. On the second cylinder full I had 1 chamber, the top left one let go. Big flash on left side of the pistol and strange 2nd boom. I knew what happened and immediately threw the gun as far away as possible in case it went off again . Just kidding didn't throw it, just a late April Fool joke. Other than the wedge being slightly dislodged by the ball no harm was done. I have fired this revolver hundreds of times using Remingtons and this was a first. I'm going to blame it on the slightly loose fitting RWS 1075 caps I was using, been saving my Remingtons for a rainy day

1965! Wow! Year I went into the Army! I wonder if the guns being made now are a bit better than what they were making way back then!

 

[springfield art]

Been using a 50/50 mix of bees wax and beef lard - works great, use on the little felt wads also. Not going to say "never", but will say "not yet" had a chain fire.

Who says muzzleloading isn't "organic"? Mink oil, beef lard, bear grease, bee's wax, tallow, etc, etc.; sounds organic to me!!

 

[NorthFork]

I believe that there is a whole lotta truth in this post!

edit-why didn't the quoted post show up???

well here it is copy/pasted-

@Stantheman86 wrote-


I just think chain fires are just an inherent "quirk" for percussion revolvers.

From the 1830's to the 1870's, percussion revolvers had a relatively brief heyday and we probably shoot them more now than people did in this original period.

There was probably less written accounts of chain fires in the percussion period because perhaps-

Nitrate cartridges somehow mitigated or reduced chain fires? Maybe all this loose powder, ball, and lube stuff we do now increases the likelihood through some factors we haven't thought of?

People fired their guns less?

Or they had chain fires and it wasn't even worth noting? Kind of like how modern shooters don't recount every jam they had in their modern "unmentionable" at the range.

The popularity of cartridges came in with pinfires, and cartridges here in the US, in the late 1860's and so, the chain fire thing was just a quirk of these "old guns" that no one had to care about anymore.

Besides personal defense, gun fights and combat, most users of percussion revolvers didn't fire their guns. Is there any written accounts of gun slingers like John Hardin who spent much of his man killin' days using percussion revolvers, writing about chain fires? There are volumes and volumes of letters, journal entries and verbal accounts given of the use of muskets and rifle-muskets in combat but relatively little about the use of percussion revolvers in combat. I have yet to read a letter from Wild Bill where he's all like "had a chain fire in the Navy today, first time in a while..." and his life and accounts of his exploits with his Navies are well documented.

 

[Redlemur60]

Who says muzzleloading isn't "organic"? Mink oil, beef lard, bear grease, bee's wax, tallow, etc, etc.; sounds organic to me!!

Always the Source of many arg er !uh discussions, about whos secret formula is the best im not sure if crisco qualifies as organic? But lard and bear greeze is right out as unclean and defieling! But yea on the bees wax as ive got several hundred pounds sittin around!

 

[Bad Karma]

1965! Wow! Year I went into the Army! I wonder if the guns being made now are a bit better than what they were making way back then!

I dunno, my favorite pistol was made in 1962. I haven’t seen anything better in all the years since.

 

[Whitworth]

I dunno, my favorite pistol was made in 1962. I haven’t seen anything better in all the years since.

According to lore, these older guns were hand fitted by skilled craftsman much like in days of yore. YMMV

 

[Bad Karma]

According to lore, these older guns were hand fitted by skilled craftsman much like in days of yore. YMMV

When it was new I looked it over very carefully and carried it everywhere I could. If there was a flaw in it I couldn’t find it then and I sure can’t now.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I always wonder about older vintage pistols versus newer one. I have read many complaints that the older pistols had poor internal parts, not hardened properly, wore out fast or broke. I think that changed in newer ones since metallurgy improved as did use of CNC etc? Opinions?

 

[Whitworth]

I always wonder about older vintage pistols versus newer one. I have read many complaints that the older pistols had poor internal parts, not hardened properly, wore out fast or broke. I think that changed in newer ones since metallurgy improved as did use of CNC etc? Opinions?

I too have heard the soft internals tale and have no doubt there were some produced with poor tempering. It still happens occasionally today in all types of products. One of the gunsmiths here should be able to tell us about wear on the internals of these older guns. Maybe just my imagination but my 1965 Uberti Navy is the slickest and most accurate of all the ones I've had, that's why I've kept it. At 15 yards I can't do any better with my S&W .38 Target Masterpiece . Like most all BP repos the sights or lack there of are one of the biggest factor limiting range and accuracy.

 

[Relic shooter]

I had heard chain fires were always ‘cap’ related and not from poorly or not greasing the cylinder mouths … is that true???

The only revolver chain fires I've examined that I could blame on nipples had older poor quality 'import' nipples with overly large base ports that were large enough to let 3F powder trickle through. Large base nipples are well known to blow hammers back & even to point of breaking a lock's tumbler axle &/or hammer..
Always best to use top quality nipples by Treso, etc. especially on any revolver.

 

[Red Owl]

Question: has there been any chain fires where the revolver had wads? That is, powder, a lubed wad, then the ball. If so, it would seem the issue would be the nipple.
I don't think I stated what I was trying to get at: Everyone here who had a chain fire, did any of you have wads? Might be interesting.

 

[Relic shooter]

Question: has there been any chain fires where the revolver had wads? That is, powder, a lubed wad, then the ball. If so, it would seem the issue would be the nipple.
I don't think I stated what I was trying to get at: Everyone here who had a chain fire, did any of you have wads? Might be interesting.

Your on target Red Owl
It's not difficult for any experienced BP revolver shooter to diagnose the causes of a chain fire, either balls are too small dia. & fail to seal by leaving a ring of lead when seated or poor quality nipples with oversized base orifices are used that allows open exposure to powder granules that ignite due to improperly fitted loose caps that often fall off during recoil of previous shots.
I learned my lesson from a much older experienced shooter about 50-60 years ago while out shooting an original pepperbox & experienced a chain-fire. He examined the pistol after the fortunately harmless incident & held the cylinder up to the light & showed me where you could see that the nipple's base holes had greatly eroded to point that 3f powder could trickle through & explained when I fired the first shot the rest of the loose caps had fallen off & hit the dirt & enabled the chain fire.
*The above incident occurred when I was just a young kid & at that point realized that I wasn't as clever as i thought & wanted to learn much more from those older more experienced guys.
Now, at 80 us old guys should try help you younger folks out and hopefully get more enjoyment by shortening the BP learning curve & avoid some hazards. Personally this old guy has enjoyed trying to keep up with some of the newer & often better crafted BP innovations that have evolved.
relic shooter

 

[Red Owl]

Elmer Keith thought chain fires resulted from poorly fitted nipples. I'd have to say that is certainly true however I leave the door open for other causes as well. I think the loose fitting ball claim is during recoil the a adjoining cylinder's ball moves forward from recoil-exposing the powder that then explodes. Since the ball is mostly out of the chamber the consequences are too bad. It would seem-offhand- if anyone using wads had a chain fire- then the nipple would almost have to be the cause.