.45 Power

[Dphar]

Powder and lead even more so. They were the Longhunters, and smaller roundballs meant more shots for the amount of lead and powder that could be transported - it was a commercial venture, after all. Then, as now, it was important to know what your rifle could do...and what you could do with it. A lot of men were killed by .36 round balls fired from 7 1/2" Navy Colts in the mid 1800s; the same ball fired from a flintlock rifle is surely capable of killing a deer, if the shooter does his part.
You, and your friend do nice work! What caliber are the switchbarrels? The one my friend built was a .40. He never used it in the PA Flintlock season, as he didn't think it complied with the regulations, but he did use it in the regular Buck season - and he didn't need the second barrel. He also used a .40 in the first Flint season PA had, he figured no game warden was going to measure it. He was right - the two wardens we encountered told us they weren't interested in checking our equipment, they just wanted to see that we had a good time...and we did! Hooked me on flintlocks.
Richard

Mine is a 50 and weighs 11 pounds. The short barreled one on the wall is a 45 and much lighter.
The 45 was made in the 1970s I think maybe the 1960s.

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

A lot of men were killed by .36 round balls fired from 7 1/2" Navy Colts in the mid 1800s; the same ball fired from a flintlock rifle is surely capable of killing a deer

Not a valid comparison. Those men hit with .36 cal. (or smaller) pistol balls usually died a slow agonizing death. What would be recoverable wound today was an invitation to infection or bleed out back then. Lincoln was shot point blank with a low powered .44 in the head but it took several days before he died.
I am of the opinion, that except for very short range, a .40 or smaller ml round ball is inadequate for humane kills on deer.

 

[Grumpa]

Lincoln was shot with a gun (deringer) that could not be expected to kill quickly with most any hit. Even with a .357 magnum there are brain shots that will not kill - but put you in a wheel chair.
I don't recall the men shot by Hickock (.36) dying slow, agonizing deaths. Lots of men hit with .58s in the Civil War died slow, agonizing deaths, it depends on where they were hit. And a .36 round ball through the heart/lung area is going to drop a dear within tracking distance. If it hits the spine or brain, it will drop the deer in its tracks. Would it be my gun of choice? No, but if it was all I had, I'd go huntin'.

 

[Grumpa]

Good story, good shot! A few years back, I was concealed by the low branches of a tree, and pulled the 'tricker' on the head of a doe that was staring at me from about 1 foot in front of my muzzle.
I got a flash in the pan! She juked, then just kept on staring. Verrry slooowly I reached for my pan charger, charged the pan, recocked the rifle,and fired - just as she juked again! Never touched a hair! At day's end, I don't know which one of us was laughing harder.

 

[Grumpa]

This is supposed to be a response to Rifleman 1776
(I'm new at this).
"a .36 round ball" - at rifle velocity.

 

[Baxter]

My first mule deer taken in ID back in 1964 was with a loaned Savage 340D in .222Rem. It was all I had and at about 25yds worked fine for me. Not saying that anyone should do the same but I grew up shooting rifles for family's food. I understand the concern many have for inadequate energy, poor shooting skills but, push come to shove, I suspect that the majority of ML hunters are likely good enough shooters and carry enough caliber/energy for what they are doing. If anything, I'd guess that ML hunters are far more conservative in taking a shot than most modern-arms hunters. I understand the concerns though.

 

[Dphar]

A lot of men were killed by .36 round balls fired from 7 1/2" Navy Colts in the mid 1800s; the same ball fired from a flintlock rifle is surely capable of killing a deer

Not a valid comparison. Those men hit with .36 cal. (or smaller) pistol balls usually died a slow agonizing death. What would be recoverable wound today was an invitation to infection or bleed out back then. Lincoln was shot point blank with a low powered .44 in the head but it took several days before he died.
I am of the opinion, that except for very short range, a .40 or smaller ml round ball is inadequate for humane kills on deer.

Range is not that important. Penetration will be the key. We also have to remember that the long hunters were not likely taking long shots for the most part. Probably ambush shots along trails or at licks, thought these last might be high human traffic areas.
If a 22 short or LR will kill a deer a 70 gr RB will as well. The shot placement will determine how humane the kill is.
This said...
In modern times I see no reason to hunt deer with a 40 unless just for curiosity. I shot a deer with a 38-40 WCF once. BP load 37 gr of FFF in a "semi-balloon head" case. 30 yards maybe. I was not impressed. People who have shot deer with 44-40 told me it was no different. Still a BP 44 is documented as killing a Gbear with one shot. It hit the right place. The shooter then bought a 45-100 in a High Wall and hunted bear or profit. It worked a lot better.
A 40 RB would have done better on the deer above. While I was using the old FP Lyman 38-40 design, the wound channel was tiny it was a pass though and a 40 Rb at that distance might not. The deer, as they usually do, ran about 40 yards and fell down. Had I shot him with 54 ML or a 45-70 he would likely have made it as far. Probably would have run as far shot with the 16 bore. But I have only killed 2 deer with it. One ran 55 yards the one dropped at the shot but it was fairly high and passed close to the spine. The one that ran had a much more serious wound than the one that fell.
Based on experience and guiding hunters over the years shot placement so long as its from an adequate caliber/cartridge, is the key. It need only be adequate if the RB for example is placed right and is large enough to give penetration to the vital organs its aimed at nothing more is needed. If shooting deer in the east from a blind or a tree stand at long bow ranges there is little need of a caliber over 40. Just head shoot them. If I were hunting in Kentucky is 1772 this is what I would do. No tracking etc. Just collect the hide.
One thing we often do is transfer modern hunting ethics to the past. It was a different world with different attitudes. For example if trying to get a stand on Buffalo in the 1870s shooting the lead cow in the heart was a really bad idea since heart shot animals often panic run. Better to shoot farther back so they hump up, live longer and require another shot or two but don't run. Once the groups is pretty well anchored the real shooting can start.

Dan

 

[Stony]

Actually, Lincoln died the next morning, not "days later". For that matter, I recall reading somewhere that if a penny was thrown off the Empire State bldg, it would go several inches into the cement sidewalk. Think of what would happen if that penny landed on someone's head :barf:. Guys (and gals)what it comes down to is placement. Remember a hit from a .22 rim fire is more effective than a miss from a .44 magnum.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

“Lincoln was shot point blank with a low powered .44 in the head but it took several days before he died.”

On at least two previous occasions you have been corrected that Lincoln did not take days to die. He died the next morning, less than 12 hours after being shot. Please do us all a favor, and refrain from misinformation to prove your personal unfounded opinion.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Crockett owned several rifles, fowlers and handguns (rifled and smmothbore, flinter and cappers). some of them documented as gifts to him.
don't know for certain what rifle he had at the Alamo but generally agreed he had his .44 capper (largest rifle he owned that can be documented) and/or his .36 capper along. likely a pistol too.
the .44 was the largest bore rifle he owned. he owned 2 larger bore fowlers (smoothbores)- likely he shot prb's from these also when suited to.

 

[Dphar]

“Lincoln was shot point blank with a low powered .44 in the head but it took several days before he died.”

On at least two previous occasions you have been corrected that Lincoln did not take days to die. He died the next morning, less than 12 hours after being shot. Please do us all a favor, and refrain from misinformation to prove your personal unfounded opinion.

If you read old accounts people took some pretty serious hits and lived for days.
Today they would likely save most of them. So rather than dying in agony they lie around pumped full of pain killer till they recover.
Head shots are not always instantly fatal but probably well over 99%. I think it was Sam Fadala that put a 54 Rb through a bison's brain side to side. The bull went down then got back up and had to be shot again.
Thinking that the ball had skipped off they checked and it went pretty much through the middle...
Not so long ago I read of jeweler being held up by 2 bad guys, one man had a knife at his throat. Jeweler pulls a 25 auto fired 2 shots, neither perp lived long enough for the cops to arrive. Hit the arteries over the heart they went down on the spot.
Somehow I doubt that a ball from a Colt Navy hitting the same spot would have been less effective. Shot in the abdomen they could have walked out of the place if no major vessels were hit.
Back in the day people got shot in the leg and died the next week. People died of shaving cuts.
In "Cartridges of the World" there is a passage stating that people shot with a 22 RF tend to live pretty normally for about a week then die suddenly. But if shot in a major artery with a 22 they will go down in their tracks and likely never regain consciousness without help. This happened to my Dad but one of my cousins saved his life. Like the perps shot with the 25 auto.
So it comes back to SHOT PLACEMENT.
I have seen deer with pencil sized wound tracks through the lungs die just as quick as one with 1 1 1/2" diameter holes though both lungs and a big hole out the far side. Did not matter how big the holes were the brain ran out of oxygen in about the same distance. Deer were the same species, sex and approximate size.
One of then engagees in Bridgers "Brigade" got shot through both lungs (two balls hit him) as he rode across a stream. Shock broke both arms. I forget how long it took him to die but IIRC death was not instantaneous.
Hickok? He was a pretty good pistol shot with either hand or both at once for accounts of people watching him shoot. Given this the people he shot probably did not linger.
If interested the reader can find a copy of "Gunfighters of the Kansas Cowtowns" and look for newspaper accounts. They may tell how long people lived after being shot some died right away some lived for days and died some recovered (IIRC).

Dan

 

[Robert Egler]

For that matter, I recall reading somewhere that if a penny was thrown off the Empire State bldg, it would go several inches into the cement sidewalk. Think of what would happen if that penny landed on someone's head

Not really. You read this a lot, but it isn't true.

I have my physics students do this calculation, first ignoring air resistance. In that case a penny thrown from the top of the Empire State building is travelling at 306 ft/s with an energy of 9.9 ft-lbs when it hits the ground, which is less than the average speed and energy from a BB gun.

However if we include air resistance (since there is air in NYC), then a penny dropped from the top of the Empire State building actually hits its terminal velocity after dropping about 2 to 3 stories, so it has the same energy as a penny dropped from a 3rd floor window. When it really hits the ground at the bottom of the Empire State building it is moving at about 36 ft/s, with an energy of 0.5 ft-lbs, which is about the same energy as a tennis ball dropped from about one foot.

You are safe from evil people trying to do you harm by throwing pennies from the Empire State building. :grin:

 

[VTdeerhunter]

Started hunting as a lad with the .45 kentucky that my dad had in the gun rack, killed a good many deer with that gun....the problem with building and buying lots of guns is they don't come up in the rotation to hunt with as often, but when she does, she still does :wink:

 

[Dphar]

Note that Dad was shot in the femoral artery. Cousin said he said ****** and fell over.
My previous description was not complete. But I type, send and go back to other things and often fail to proof read properly.
Dan

 

[Grumpa]

I'm not where I can put my hand on the actual quote, but the FBI teaches that there is enough oxygen in the human brain to sustain aggression for 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. One-thousand-one, one-thousand-two...
-I wouldn't want someone/something beating/chewing on me for that long, let alone trying to kill me. A solid hit destroying the brain/upper spinal column is the only hit that can be counted on to end the action. But, every shooting is unique. For deer etc. we go for the heart/lung shot and a "humane" death where the animal runs for 45 yards and drops, and is breathing its last when we arrive. And some other "hunter" may fire in the air after the deer drops, and be tagging it when you arrive.
ARRGH! -I tend to ramble.
Dan, you have added much intelligent input to this discussion. Thank you - that is why I joined this Forum.

 

[Dphar]

The Thompson/LaGarde tests, while now considered far out of date were more enlightening than people think if they read the writings of the two principles rather than someone's writing based on second or third hand writing which is often distorted.
They concluded that nothing smaller than a 3" solid shot would provide absolute stopping power on humans.

To the hunters who wonder about killing power;

In hunting arms the ability of the hunter to place the shot is paramount. I love my 16 bore rifle and its very effective and it has a short sighting radius compared to my longrifles. But it makes enough recoil to effect my shooting. As a result I killed all the deer last year with a 54. I will surely hunt with my 50 this year. So I no longer shoot the 16 bore much. Partly due to an injury years ago and partly due to the pain shooting a military rifle match inflicted on my shoulder which is getting some sort of old timers disease I am sure. Besides the 50 kills deer just as dead as the 16 bore does on about 1/2 the lead.

So rather that agonize over calibers, especially for deer, the hunter should practice more and stop worrying about his 45 not being big enough or needing some bullet. It is if used right it will work fine with the RB.
Hunting with a traditional ML with traditional projectiles means the hunter in handicapping himself intentionally.
Only take good frontal or broadside shots on unwounded game, make sure the animal is not too far for the sighting equipment and trajectory.
Practice at unknown ranges. In normal years I go for walks and shoot rocks at what ever range they are for practice.
Not practicing, not abiding by the limitations of the sights/propellant/projectile involved will cause trouble. Does the rifle shoot to the same point of impact from the sitting position as offhand? Does a hard resting surface put the shot out high or low? Does resting on a different part of the barrel/forend change this? (Usually yes) How much?
People need to SHOOT their rifles seriously. What does the wind REALLY do at 100 yards? It is impossible to find this out without serious bench rest shooting with an accurate load and at least one wind flag to give some idea what the down range wind is.
Trajectory? To most hunting ranges a HV rb from a 45-50-54 will shoot to the same trajectory for practical purposes on deer. So if the hunter has a 45 and a 50 loaded to similar velocities learning where to hold for one will pretty well cover the other to 120-150 yards.
During the American Revolution and the War of 1812 there were Officers killed at ranges of 200-300 yards. Its not possible to shoot with any reliability at 300 with a RB without some experience. These guys shot more than we might thing. Generally for prizes or cash. The good shots knew their rifles. 200 yards is an easy shot on a human with a RB rifle IF the shooter KNOWS where to hold and they did.
So shoot the rifle, pay attention the WHY you may have hit or missed. Do not use targets that will not allow measuring the group, wind drift, drop accurately for serious practice/experimentation.


Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

I stand corrected, it was next morning.
My point remains valid. Low powered guns of yesteryear did not have the devasting effect of today's modern cartridges.
With almost any of today's cf pistol cartridges, a point blank shot to the head would be instantly fatal.

 

[Stony]

Not that I'm picking on you but... I knew a Chicago coroner who got to see all sorts of shooting results. He even handled some non-fatal shooting cases. He told me about one where a guy was shot point blank in the forehead eight times with a .25 auto. All the bullets went around the skull and exited out the back of his head. He was treated with a band aid in the front and a band aid in the back, along with some pain killers for his headache :rotf: But you are right, most head shots are fatal.

 

[Stony]

Now I never said that the stuff about the penny was true, just that I had read it somewhere. Now my response to Rifleman just above was someone's personal experience. I have no reason to believe he lied or was making it up. But as I cannot say it was the absolute truth, you'll have to take it at face value. Of course you know that saying about the .25 ACP, if you shoot me with it, you'll just make me mad. :rotf: :blah:

 

[juancho]

The .25 is known for doing some nasty wound chanels, as I was told by an uncle medical doctor of mine, It has so little power that the bullet can ricochet with the bones INSIDE your body , making it sometimes impossible for the doctors to fix it.
Now back to the original topic of a .45.Mine does 2150 fps at the muzzle with PRB.I see no need for more within 50 yds if you hit the spot, now if you miss, a 4 bore would not help you much, would it?