4F Black Powder Question

[Carbon 6]

Here we have a clear admission that he has no scientific proof on what he previously assumes takes place

I don't think it was wise to make an assumption based on one excerpt. It doesn't paint the whole picture.

 

[Tanglefoot]

To Bigfoot: Amen, brother!
Tanglefoot

 

[user 36911]

Have you seen what 4F does in the pan during rain or high humidity? Who would want that problem in the main charge?

If you want more power. Use Swiss powder. That's what I do.

 

[azmntman]

We dont have that soup issue here. Last I looked it was up to 12% humidity.

 

[user 36911]

We don't either normally but it gets humid when it's trying to rain or when it's raining/snowing. Doesn't it ever rain in Arizona?

4F will even suck in the 12%.

 

[SDSmlf]

We don't either normally but it gets humid when it's trying to rain or when it's raining/snowing. Doesn't it ever rain in Arizona?

4F will even suck in the 12%.

When hunting in North Carolina’s 80% plus humidity I change out the pan charge of 4F every 30 minutes or so if it looks damp. If it’s really pouring, I plug the touch hole and charge the pan when I see or hear the game.

Shot thousands of rounds while participating in SASS matches through my cap and ball pistols with preloaded (uncapped nipples) cylinders in high humidity and rain without a moisture induced misfire (had to protect nipples from rain with brim of hat or something else while capping) with the only misfires occurring when the percussion charge fell out of the caps. And I was using 4F In the cylinders for the ‘main charge’. 4F gave me and others the least problems. If I were shooting competitions with BP handguns I would without doubt give 4F a full and complete performance evaluation before making any powder granulation selection decisions, decisions would be based on performance, not preconceived concerns. Just my opinion.

 

[user 36911]

SASS isn't hunting and a C&B revolver is not a flintlock. You changed the pan powder every 30 min. No way would 4F as a main charge not suck some moisture.

I don't care what you guys do. If you want to use 4F as a main charge. Go ahead. I'll stay with 3F and if it's snowing it will be 2F.

What a silly thread. Not sure why I got in it. We need a delete post button.

 

[TNGhost]

Have you seen what 4F does in the pan during rain or high humidity? Who would want that problem in the main charge?

If you want more power. Use Swiss powder. That's what I do.

It should be obvious that there is a big difference in how the climate affects the exposed uncompacted unsealed by a patch and ball, pan charge, vs. the main charge.

 

[SDSmlf]

SASS isn't hunting and a C&B revolver is not a flintlock. You changed the pan powder every 30 min. No way would 4F as a main charge not suck some moisture.

I don't care what you guys do. If you want to use 4F as a main charge. Go ahead. I'll stay with 3F and if it's snowing it will be 2F.

What a silly thread. Not sure why I got in it. We need a delete post button.

OP asked about using 4F. Nothing to do with hunting or rain. Just citing examples were I have not had any issues using it. Very similar to 3F, which is similar to 2F..... Surprised that you change main charge when it’s snowing.

I'll stay with 3F and if it's snowing it will be 2F.

Would expect different point of impact with different granulations, but guess you have that worked out. I have not been that lucky.

 

[SDSmlf]

SASS isn't hunting and a C&B revolver is not a flintlock. You changed the pan powder every 30 min. No way would 4F as a main charge not suck some moisture.

I don't care what you guys do. If you want to use 4F as a main charge. Go ahead. I'll stay with 3F and if it's snowing it will be 2F.

What a silly thread. Not sure why I got in it. We need a delete post button.

Just for an FYI, shot my 32 caliber flinter late today, have woodchuck problem in the garden. One woodchuck will not be returning. Gun was loaded and primed inside of ‘locked’ screen porch most of the day before the trigger was pulled. And get this, primed with 4F. And because of this thread, main charge of 4F. Instant ignition and the woodchuck, well, already spoiled the ending. The weather, kind of humid today. Just checked Weather Channel and we are wee bit north of 12% as far as humidity.

Question for you. Do you have any actual experience shooting or using 4F? Have you or anyone you know ever have any safety issues with 4F? Just curious.

 

[TNGhost]

Do you have any actual experience shooting or using 4F?

Have you or anyone you know ever have any safety issues with 4F? Just curious.

Yes.

No.

 

[RAEDWALD]

My friend Carbon 6 sent me a link to Gunnery 1858 by William Greener.

He extols the many assumptions made against fine powders over courser grains.
But then after his opinions writes this paragraph.
"There can be no doubt of the importance of this principle; little progress has, however, been effected from want of scientific illustration; let it be defined like that of steam power, and its adoption will follow as a natural consequence."

Here we have a clear admission that he has no scientific proof on what he previously assumes takes place but he is absolutely correct in one thing!
It has been clearly adopted as in, my word, gospel!
Where as the real gospels do indeed stand up to scrutiny this one above certainly does not.......so far!

Old man Greener was well past his prime by then. His son was more up to speed and split from him to make breech loaders which old man Greener abhored. So it would be better to read his son's works. Especially 'The Gun and It's Development' by William Wellington Greener. The father was very much a practical gunmaker of the early 19th century but his son was equally a man of the end of that century and closely involved with the scientific research on black powder and early smokeless powders. He is clear on the matter of matching grain to the task and is specific on the matter of fine grained black powder.

His 9th Edition of 1910 can be read and/or dowloaded free at The gun and its development : Greener, W. W. (William Wellington) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive They also have his 6th of 1897 and 8th of 1907 editions if you want to see how his views developed over those years.

 

[Zonie]

The testing I did with 4F powder shows that it isn't any more likely to absorb moisture from the air than any of the other granulations of black powder as long as it isn't in contact with any fouling from previous shots.

On the other hand, if there is any fouling in the pan or the barrel, the fouling will suck up the moisture in the air and transfer it to the black powder. Because 4F powder is finer it has more surface area per grain of charge, it is much more likely to absorb any wetness the fouling has accumulated than a courser powder. That said, if the pan is fouled, any priming powder. even 3Fg or 2Fg should be changed often.

Put another way, if you are in a humid area, you can prime the pan of a flintlock with 4F powder and it will be good for a days hunt without changing it.
If you have fired the gun and there is any fouling in the pan or on the underside of the frizzens pan cover, you will either have to thoroughly clean the pan and the pan cover before you reload or you will need to replace the 4F priming often.

As for old man Greener, it sounds like he would fit in here on the MLF very nicely. His son might fit in over on the Modern Muzzleloaders forum better than here.

 

[user 36911]

For those who asked. Yes, I have experience with 4F. I wouldn't be talking about it if I didn't. My use differs from others. It absorbed moisture faster than 3F and i'd imagine even more than 2F but i've never tried 2F in the pan.

I still have some Swiss 4F and I mess with it now and then in the pan for practice/woods walks. I'll never use it for hunting. Especially, for bear.

 

[Bad Karma]

We don't either normally but it gets humid when it's trying to rain or when it's raining/snowing. Doesn't it ever rain in Arizona?

4F will even suck in the 12%.

Edward Abbey was asked if it ever rained in the canyonlands. His reply, “I don’t know, I’ve only been here 20 years.” It’s pretty dry up here in the high desert too. 12% RH will not show up in detectable amounts in powder of any kind I’m aware of.

 

[user 36911]

We get 12% sometimes but 20-30% is more normal.

 

[George]

We get 12% sometimes but 20-30% is more normal.

I hunt in Kentucky where humidity in the 70% to 90% range is not at all uncommon. It rarely gets below 50%. Average morning humidity is 81%, average afternoon is 55%. I've been using nothing but 4F for priming quite a few different flintlocks for almost 50 years, and have never had a problem with prime absorbing water from the air. I've hunted many days when it rained all day enough to require a cow's knee on the lock, I haven't changed the prime for the whole hunt of 6-8 hours, but the gun fired normally at the end of the day.

If your prime is sucking water out of the air, something different is going on. My best guess would be a dirty pan, because that's the only thing I've ever seen cause what you describe. If that is happening to you with a totally clean pan, then I'm glad I don't live where you do, because your water vapor is bad stuff.

Spence

 

[SDSmlf]

We get 12% sometimes but 20-30% is more normal.

Rarely see humidity approaching 30%, let alone go below 30% in this part of NC. It’s 95% as I write this according to the Weather Channel. The 32 flinter is loaded and primed with 4F and waiting on the screen porch for friends and family of yesterday’s guest of honor, Mr Woodchuck, to show up at our garden salad bar.

As others have suggested, black powder fouling is real moisture magnet and quickly turns to a gooey black tar here, no matter the granulation. If you need to take a quick second shot while hunting, after making sure the pan and frizzen are clean, you can reload as ‘normal’. If it doesn’t appear that second shot will come quickly, you’ve got to dump or pull the second load (or just don’t reload) and clean the gun before reloading. I actual have not so PC/HC cleaning ‘kits’ made up and kept in individual ziplock type bags. Got the idea years ago from a forum member we don’t hear from much any more, Roundball, who also hunts the humid NC woods.

 

[user 36911]

It's not a dirty pan. I've been at this a while. I'm not the only only one who says 4F sucks in moisture but that's on another forum.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=26105.0
https://www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm

 

[SDSmlf]

It's not a dirty pan. I've been at this a while. I'm not the only only one who says 4F sucks in moisture but that's on another forum.

I was always told that pan powder, any granulation, finer being worse, sucked up water, so I got in the habit of dumping the pan or keeping it empty in the rain until showtime. Just have not found it to be a problem unless water directly gets into the pan, and then it does, it doesn’t matter what you are using. When that happens I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to wipe things up, pick the main charge just be sure things are clear, and I’m good to go. Also in the rain I use a cowsknee, favorite being one out of Elk hide I believe, that I got from a forum member, @Cutfingers.