4F Black Powder Question

[user 36911]

I do the same thing. Cow's Knee, polish the pan, wipe it clean and dry.

Swiss has no graphite coating. I wonder if that has something to do with it?

 

[SDSmlf]

I do the same thing. Cow's Knee, polish the pan, wipe it clean and dry.

Swiss has no graphite coating. I wonder if that has something to do with it?

The Swiss in the pan is something I never considered. I’m committed to Swiss for most of my main charges, but to be honest haven’t been to particular about what I prime with. I typically use those spring loaded chargers that give you a few grains when you depress the snout, and have a number of them I keep filled and in an airtight container with a couple of desiccant packs. Right now they are all filled with 50 or 60 year old DuPont 4F I’m burning up. I’ll save the last can for future comparison against current powders (I’ve been ‘gifted’ a lot of old powder over the years). I have Swiss 4F (that’s what’s loaded as the main charge in the 32 I mentioned in an earlier post), along with older G-O and metal can Goex, but never tested them as pan powders in humid conditions. Just never had a problem or reason to test them, it ain’t broke, so why ......

 

[user 36911]

I'm picky and like a fast ignition. Just going bang is not enough for me. It also needs to do it every time.

 

[azmntman]

I only have one, an OLD traditions flintlock. Have yet to drill flash hole to 1/16th but if I keep the flint knapped about every 5-6 shots I cant complain. It will break clay pigeons about every shot at 90 yds. I never really shot it a lot as before I landed here and learned I could knapp a flint I just put up with crappy ignition and changed em out after 15-20 shots (thus I decidied I couldn't afford a new flint every time I went out). Might be a lot more accurate now when I get a load worked up, drill the touch hole and knapp knapp knapp. Dang, I' suddenly sleepy.........................

 

[TNGhost]

For those who asked. Yes, I have experience with 4F. I wouldn't be talking about it if I didn't. My use differs from others. It absorbed moisture faster than 3F and i'd imagine even more than 2F but i've never tried 2F in the pan.

I still have some Swiss 4F and I mess with it now and then in the pan for practice/woods walks. I'll never use it for hunting. Especially, for bear.

So no experience with 4f as a main charge?

 

[user 36911]

So no experience with 4f as a main charge?

I have zero reasons to do that. I talked about my experience with using it as pan powder. It applies to using it as a main charge too.

Just in case you're about to say i'm off-topic.

 

[SDSmlf]

I'm picky and like a fast ignition. Just going bang is not enough for me. It also needs to do it every time.

Never meant I wasn’t picky or not a fan of fast and consistent ignition. I polish all my pans, work on touch hole geometry, lock tuning, etc. I’m just as crazy about ignition times as many on this forum.

When I said I wasn’t to particular about what I prime with, what I meant was I haven’t found myself experimenting and trying different priming powders very often. Came into a stash of DuPont 4F years ago when a buddy’s uncle passed away, found that it worked very well, and have stuck with it. At 5 grains per prime, that’s 1400 shots per pound. With my current inventory, won’t be needing to seriously look at different priming powders for at least another 5000 shots. Looking forward to getting there.

 

[TNGhost]

I have zero reasons to do that. I talked about my experience with using it as pan powder. It applies to using it as a main charge too.

Just in case you're about to say i'm off-topic.

So then you are theorizing that the moisture issue applies to a 4f load in a clean dry chamber under a patch and ball, and that moisture affects a contained compacted charge like that, the same as it does a loose, exposed priming charge in the pan, but you haven't actually used a 4f main charge?

Seems counter intuitive to me.

 

[user 36911]

The touch hole is open to let in humid air and will affect the powder next to the touch hole which you want to ignite.

I have no reason to use 4F as a charge. I don't get why I would? I use Swiss 3F as my charge. It has more powder than crappy Goex 4F. I shoot a lot and I don't have any old powder laying around not being used.

You want to use 4F as a charge. Knock yourself out. For me 4F is pan powder and not even good at that.

This is a waste of time. I'm done here.

 

[TNGhost]

The touch hole is open to let in humid air and will affect the powder next to the touch hole which you want to ignite.

I have no reason to use 4F as a charge. I don't get why I would? I use Swiss 3F as my charge. It has more powder than crappy Goex 4F. I shoot a lot and I don't have any old powder laying around not being used.

You want to use 4F as a charge. Knock yourself out. For me 4F is pan powder and not even good at that.

This is a waste of time. I'm done here.

You just gave two reasons to use 4f as a main charge and answered your own question.

Not everyone has access to Swiss and 4f will give more energy than "crappy Goex" 3f with the economy of more shots per pound. Add to that there is less fouling with 4f and the reasons to use it are piling up, while the reasons not to are non existent.

As far as Swiss goes, their 4f is marketed as a main charge powder, not a priming powder, so there is that.

It makes me wonder why someone would use a powder not marketed as for use as a pan powder, as a pan powder?

Some of us folks like to think outside the 4f priming, 3F pistol, 2f Musket, shotgun box, that is a modern invention and not period or historically correct, which kind of cuts to the heart of this forum.

 

[nhmoose]

This is a waste of time. I'm done here.

Well Bye

 

[user 36911]

You just gave two reasons to use 4f as a main charge and answered your own question.

Not everyone has access to Swiss and 4f will give more energy than "crappy Goex" 3f with the economy of more shots per pound. Add to that there is less fouling with 4f and the reasons to use it are piling up, while the reasons not to are non existent.

As far as Swiss goes, their 4f is marketed as a main charge powder, not a priming powder, so there is that.

It makes me wonder why someone would use a powder not marketed as for use as a pan powder, as a pan powder?

Some of us folks like to think outside the 4f priming, 3F pistol, 2f Musket, shotgun box, that is a modern invention and not period or historically correct, which kind of cuts to the heart of this forum.

Back in the day they had one powder horn and used it for the main charge and pan. I'm sure it wasn't 4F. I like to do the same thing. One horn with Swiss 3F for both. Easy, fast, good power, and less fouling than Goex. That's my method and works well for me. You all can do as you please.

Now, if i'm not quoted anymore. I'm done with this thread. Not the forum. Pretty weak, moose.

btw..Swiss does not recommend 4F as a main rifle charge. It's a pan powder.

http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/admin/uploads/file/Swiss Product Informational Sheet.pdf

 

[jerrywh]

Anybody who knows what the yare talking about will tell you " DO NOT USE 4F POWDER FOR A MAIN CHARGE. Yes people often get away with it but it is very dangerous, Ask GOEX. You are literally playing with dynamite. Trade some one for some 3f or 2f.
There are people on this forum who know more than all the manufactures of guns and powder makers. Why take a chance. Would you bet your life for $20.00 NOT ME.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Back in the day they had one powder horn and used it for the main charge and pan. I'm sure it wasn't 4F. I like to do the same thing. One horn with Swiss 3F for both. Easy, fast, good power, and less fouling than Goex. That's my method and works well for me. You all can do as you please.

Now, if i'm not quoted anymore. I'm done with this thread. Not the forum. Pretty weak, moose.

btw..Swiss does not recommend 4F as a main rifle charge. It's a pan powder.

http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/admin/uploads/file/Swiss Product Informational Sheet.pdf

When you say "back in the day" and "pretty sure" can you please submit your evidence that backs up your phrase's please

 

[Britsmoothy]

Anybody who knows what the yare talking about will tell you " DO NOT USE 4F POWDER FOR A MAIN CHARGE. Yes people often get away with it but it is very dangerous, Ask GOEX. You are literally playing with dynamite. Trade some one for some 3f or 2f.
There are people on this forum who know more than all the manufactures of guns and powder makers. Why take a chance. Would you bet your life for $20.00 NOT ME.

Can you also submit evidence that proves 4f as a main charge is akin to loading dynamite.
Can you please show me a firearm, a muzzle loader that clearly has stamped on it DO NOT USE 4F BLACK POWDER?

 

[TNGhost]

Back in the day they had one powder horn and used it for the main charge and pan. I'm sure it wasn't 4F. I like to do the same thing. One horn with Swiss 3F for both. Easy, fast, good power, and less fouling than Goex. That's my method and works well for me. You all can do as you please.

Now, if i'm not quoted anymore. I'm done with this thread. Not the forum. Pretty weak, moose.

btw..Swiss does not recommend 4F as a main rifle charge. It's a pan powder.

http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/admin/uploads/file/Swiss Product Informational Sheet.pdf

Just can't help yourself in coming back and helping to prove my point can you?

The link you provided is from the American distributors of Swiss and Schuetzen powders. You have to ask yourself upon reading that, why Swiss would make two grades of pan powder 4f and nullB?

Well they don't, and that link is to the "Americanized" flyer that bows to our litigious society and the hordes of lawyers in this country sucking the lifeblood out of the nation, that are responsible for $50 gas cans that are impossible to use, and $400 ladders.

Take a look at pics of actual Swiss cans posted earlier by britsmoothey in this thread, you'll find they have no such warning or guidance.

I would like to see some proof that there was no 4f in those powder horns of yore as well.

 

[user 36911]

When you say "back in the day" and "pretty sure" can you please submit your evidence that backs up your phrase's please

I'm talking about the fur trade era. It's mostly from books I own. It's hard for me to show that.
Do you think the MM carried two powder horns?

 

[user 36911]

Just can't help yourself in coming back and helping to prove my point can you?

The link you provided is from the American distributors of Swiss and Schuetzen powders. You have to ask yourself upon reading that, why Swiss would make two grades of pan powder 4f and nullB?

Well they don't, and that link is to the "Americanized" flyer that bows to our litigious society and the hordes of lawyers in this country sucking the lifeblood out of the nation, that are responsible for $50 gas cans that are impossible to use, and $400 ladders.

Take a look at pics of actual Swiss cans posted earlier by britsmoothey in this thread, you'll find they have no such warning or guidance.

I would like to see some proof that there was no 4f in those powder horns of yore as well.

If you want to use Swiss 4F as a main charge I won't stop you. I prefer not to and it's what i'd advise if asked.

 

[Cattman]

i may have replied this before i dont know. a shooter in england on another site uses 4f in all his guns up to 70 cals. hunts rabbits and such over their. says it works fine with no problems for him raised a storm on that site but he stuck by it. i tried it in a 50 round ball gun and liked it. 70 grains behind a linen patched round ball. accurate and a lot cleaner than the other courser stuff. when ever this subject is brought up it raises a storm. i live in a high dry climate and moisture isnt a problem way up here.

 

[SDSmlf]

Probably best for the Henny Penny types to avoid all but the least energetic 1F powders (stay a way from Swiss, Goex Olde Eynsford and some of the subs) to minimize pressures in their bores and get the best moisture resistance. Those looking for fastest ignition, and optimum accuracy and best performance, etc, with their particular gun, can make their powder selection based on performance with what’s available to them for optimum load development. Have to get those ‘why doesn’t my gun......? and ‘why does my gun.......? forum topics from somewhere. There are those out there that honestly believe for example, that Shockey’s Gold sticks are the best, and will make that argument until their death, and they could be correct, at least from the limited propellants they have tried. I know a few of these guys and gals.