4F Blackpowder uses?

[rodwha]

The attitudes and comments of some have been pretty bad in comparison to the maybe dozen various forums (muzzleloading, backpacking, beer brewing, and cigars) that I'm a member of. By far this one takes the cake.

 

[swathdiver]

the lyman handbook shows several 4f loads for revolvers from .31 cal, through 45 cal. i would look into that as a possibility in your revolvers if you are going to have alot of it.

Nothing wrong with this statement. Original Hazard's Pistol Powder from around the time of the War of Northern Aggression was of 4F granulation.

Any of you fellas with one of the first Ruger Old Army sixguns will see it as a recommended powder in the manual.

It's great stuff for the little pocket guns with limited capacity. Ever wonder why the .31 Pocket Colt was so popular when we are hard pressed today to dent wood with it? The powder they was using had more oompff to it.

I have shot full chambers of the Swiss 4Fg from my Old Army Dragoon, brass Remington Pocket and steel Remington Belt Revolver with no detrimental effects to any gun. We know the ROA can take a chamber full of smokeless and survive according to Bill Ruger so that was a no brainer with using 4F in it.

The "What If's" of lawyering is why it's only recommended use is as a priming powder today, but if one had been around near 50 years ago, them fellas knew what the lawyers have since suppressed.

 

[rodwha]

That post quote shows I, too, misread or recalled only what I wanted. Maybe I need to eat a bit of it...

 

[Maven]

"That we're so blind we don't know any better and can't see them back-pedal on what they clearly wrote, and that we'll accept it when they parrot some old, bad, advice only to blame the original authors for writing it in the first place." ...Alden

Question for you, Alden as I'm uncertain about quoting legitimate authorities and sources. Since few of us are ballisticians or have the equipment, facilities, time, or $$, to conduct extensive testing of say BP of whatever granulation, does it beggar logic to cite (or paraphrase) legitimate sources, e.g., Lyman? the Mad Monk? Larry Pletcher? Sam Fadala? Are you saying we must or should distrust such sources and rely on our own experience? Isn't that solipsistic not to mention skewed, and sometimes risky?

Btw, and this isn't directed to Alden, Fadala's "Black Powder Loading Manual" (1983, DBI Books) doesn't specify FFFFg loads for any of the pistols and revolvers he tested. Rather, he used FFFg or Pyrodex P and reserved FFFFg only for flintlock priming.

 

[Zonie]

you also might consider looking at the latest edition of the Lyman blackpowder handbook...

Just the intro I was looking for.

Although the first edition of the Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL had several listings for loads of 4F powder in pistols, the latest edition has eliminated all references to 4F powder loads from the pistol data.

I am surprised you didn't mention this when you referred to Lymans listings.

i didn't mention it, because why would they publish the same test from an earlier publication. if you noticed, the new edition has more and different information on other things. additional info on sabots and powders, ect. heck, if they included everything from the first it would be 2 inches thick.

Oh come on now. :shake:

We both know both editions published the GOEX 3Fg powder loads for the little pistols plus, I'm betting, the Pyrodex P loads.
If they included the 4F powder loads you seem to be so fond of it would have needed only a few more pages in the 2nd edition book.

I suspect you didn't mention the fact that the 4Fg powder loads were deleted because it does not support your contention.

While we are discussing the Lyman book, on page 62 Sam Fadala discusses powder granulations.
This is in chapter 8, MUZZLELOADER PROPELLANTS.

It says,

"Granulations of Black Powder

FFFFFg (5F)
Very fine granulation, recommended for flintlock pan priming.
FFFFg (4F)
Very fine granulation, recommended for flintlock pan priming.
FFFg (3F)
Excellent in revolvers, certain pistols, smallbore rifles, and for target loads in big bores.
FFg (2F)
Ideal for full-throttle loads in big bore rifles and shotguns, some big bore pistols.
Fg (1F)
Too slow burning for most muzzleloading rifles but useful in heavy 12 and 10 guage shotguns loads, as well as big bore black powder cartridges for good accuracy.
Goex Cartridge
Designed for use in loading black powder cartridges."

It would be interesting if you checked out what your 1st edition book has to say about 4F powder in its "Muzzleloading Propellants" chapter.

 

[faste350]

i have no contention to support. i simply stated he might look into it. goodness sakes, i don't care what he shoots in it, i was only offering information printed in the handbooks i have have read. is offering printed information for the reading now not allowed?

 

[faste350]

only states; both 3f and 4f, of both brands were fired with each projetile. in all cases loads were weighed with no variance and were exactly the same.

it lists all charges with what projectile and gives velocity, pressure(lup) and energy. .31 cal does not list pressures.

also the same info and tests for long guns.

 

[George]

I suspect you didn't mention the fact that the 4Fg powder loads were deleted because it does not support your contention.

Then is it fair to assume that you feel the fact Lyman didn't include the 4F pistol data in the later edition supports your position that it isn't safe?

Do you have info about why they left it out which would be germane to this discussion?

Spence

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

Read carefully, take most everything with a grain of salt, and just because someone used to do it in the past doesn't mean it should be done, especially if it is something inherently dangerous.

Nothing wrong with looking up older ways of doing things. That does not mean I would do them, it just means I am interested in how it used to be done.

If the OP already bought the 4f powder, it is time for them to get a flintlock.

 

[Cpl. Ashencheeks]

Here is a video of a .31 caliber Wells Fargo Pocket pistol in use with 4f powder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ptTCAcpbe0

He gives some information about using 4f in small caliber pistols only.

I have a similar replica but have only used 3f in it for the past 30 years. I do not really intend on using anything else, but 4f would add a little more power to this particular pistol.

Small charges and small calibers with strong thick chamber walls.

 

[necchi]

Thanks for digging up Mikes video(s),,
I know he talks about 4F and C&B revolvers in a few of'm.

 

[Tom Compton]

:dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

***SNIP***
We know the ROA can take a chamber full of smokeless and survive according to Bill Ruger so that was a no brainer with using 4F in it.
***SNIP***

:idunno:

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN A BLACK POWDER FIREARM!

Anyone who puts smokeless powder in black powder pistol is asking to be hurt. That is just plain stupid!

Have you ever seen what smokeless powder can do to an 1860 Army .44 cal. pistol? I have. My younger brother, horse-trader that he is, got one in a trade. He knew very little about black powder firearms so, when he ran out of Black Powder, he put some smokeless powder in it. He's lucky he's not dead! It did the cartoon-like banana peel on the barrel and broke the case-hardened steel frame too. I don't much care what Bill Ruger says. I've seen what happens and it ain't pretty! It's just plain stupid.

You do know that smokeless powder comes in lots of different burn rates right? Which brand and number did he use? To make a blanket statement of, "We know the ROA can take a chamber full of smokeless and survive according to Bill Ruger..." is nuts. Perhaps Bill Ruger "thinks" he knows that, but "we" sure don't. I know exactly the opposite - I've seen it.

Twisted_1in66:thumbsup:
Dan

 

[Zonie]

On page 11 of the Ruger Old Army Owners Manual it clearly says

"Never use smokeless powder in any muzzleloader! "

Also, adjacent to a drawing of a Old Army it says,
"Never Use Unknown or Smokeless Powder"

Later, on page 14 where it shows a measuring cup pouring powder into the cylinder it says in red,
"Black Powder Only ! "

For those who have Adobe on their computers and want to see the ROA Owners Manual, here's a link
http://www.ruger.com/products/_manuals/oldArmy.pdf

 

[Alden]

But Swathdiver didn't say it, don't you see, he's just quoting Bill Ruger! An authority who just must not have been "lawyered up" despite his employees not being covered for Medical if they smoked or rode a motorcycle and his volunteering not to sell "high-capacity magazines" to civilians.

So it's OK -- you can't blame blackpowder62 or Swathdiver either.

:haha:

 

[swathdiver]

The Ruger Old Army was made from the same modern metals as his Super Black Hawk. Bill wanted it to be tough and tough it is, tough enough to take a full charge of smokeless and not blow up. If memory serves, his engineers used 40 grains of Bullseye under a round ball during testing.

Now, I'm not saying to use it, just pointing out some history for the fellas. I'm sure Mr. Ruger wouldn't recommend it either.

Anyone who has read Ned Robert's The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle learned about the old-timers using duplex loads of smokeless powder and black powder in their rifles.

I'm not saying to do that neither, just pointing out what our ancestors did, who were not conditioned by lawyers to be afraid of everything.

Those wishing to use a historical load like Hazard's Pistol Powder, stick with using 4fg 1/10 of bullet weight in your cap and ball revolvers. So if you have a 140 grain conical, use about 14 grains of 4fg. It performs little different than about 20 grains of 3fg btw. 240 grain conical, use 24 grains. However, some chambers have so little space left under a ball or conical, that 4fg would be preferred if you don't want your boolits bouncing off the fence post and coming back at you.

This general mentality reminds me of the new breed of RSOs that have a yellow painted line, safety chains, muzzle flags and carry a big bad 1911 with the hammer down and chamber empty because somehow condition 1, after 100 years, is unsafe today. :youcrazy:

:idunno:

 

[Zonie]

Having seen with my own eyes several modern cartridge revolvers made by companies like Smith & Wesson and Colt blown all to hell because the owner overloaded the cartridges with a moderate amount of Bullseye powder (it was a double load that came nowhere near filling the case), I think your comment about anyone loading a ROA with any of it, let alone 40 grains of it is extremely dangerous.

People reading these posts often take them at their word and believe them.

Folks: Do NOT even think about loading ANY smokeless powder into a Cap & Ball revolver of any kind, or loading it in any other muzzleloading gun.
It can kill you.

 

[swathdiver]

Well, I agree with you most of the time but fail to see how my comment is dangerous.

Loading a chamber up with Bullseye is dangerous but that's what the engineers get paid to do.

Please don't confuse my comments with Bill Ruger's or even the context, neither is advocating the use of smokeless powder in a percussion sixgun.

Our six shooters are plenty powerful with using genuine BP, there's no benefit to using the other unless one was trying to win themself a Darwin Award.

Anyhow this thread is about legitimate uses of 4fg black powder.