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Walks with fire said:
I think if that same shot had been made with the .54 it would have broken that shoulder and it would not have ran that far if any. I am sure a .58 would have put it down within a few yards.

who said my 50 cal didnt break the shoulder? the onley thing a 54 "might" have done is gave me complete pass threw. but thats hard to tell since i cant hang the deer back up and shoot it again.

as for a 62 can shooting just as flat as a 45 when fired at the same velocity. DEAR LORD HOW MUCH POWDER ARE YOU USING!?!?! all calibers will shoot equally flat if you can get them to the same velocity. but for a 62 cal to get to the same velocity as a 45 would require a HUGE powder charge and a long barrel. you will also need a sling for your arm after shooting cause the recoil is going to womp you as much as it will the deer. i can just imagine how much powder it would take to get my 69 cal to shoot flat at 100 yards. maby 250 grains at least, probably more while a the little 45 cal can shoot flat at 100 yards with just 70 grains (maby even less).

with standard powder loads larger calibers will show more drop at normal distances. however i never said they werent useable. if any one doubts my claim of rainbow trajectories then they can go ahead and challenge me to a shoot. we will sight our guns in at 50 yards with 80 grains of FFFg powder then shoot out at 100 yards with the same sight picture as the 50 yard shot. if the bigger caliber shoots as flat or flatter then my smaller caliber with the same charge ill eat my words.

-matt
 
hanshi said:
Maybe the best advice is just to use what you're comfortable with. :v
:grin:
Ya think? LOL
These kinds of threads are always the same....they start out looking for 'opinions'...folks start giving opinions and sooner or later somebody gets their panties in a wad that anyone could possibly have an opinion different than theirs...ie: dare to suggest a larger caliber...LOL...then all the catch-phrases, hype and bluster starts and it goes rapidly downhill from there.
:grin:
Human nature at work...all very predictable and usually humorous to watch
 
Read all the posts in this topic and thought it was just people expressing their thoughts on calibers, loads, bullets, trajectories and experiences. Didn't notice the "negative aspects" you're referring to. All in all...an excellent discussion.....Fred
 
Matt85 said:
using larger calibers does provide advantages though. a larger caliber will deal with bone better and will penetrait more at longer distances. of course a larger caliber also makes a larger hole which can lead to less tracking or at least easier tracking due to more blood loss.
-matt

at what point did i say "do not use a larger caliber"? nor did i ever "get my panties in a knot". in the above qoute i clearly stated the advantages of using larger calibers.

when someone askes for a recomended caliber i will, just like in the "old days" recomend the smallest possible caliber to reliably get the job done. this is practical in that it will save you money on lead and powder.

sure a 54, 58, 62, 69, 75, etc. might drop the deer, elk, moose, or bear faster then the 45 or the 50. but the 45 or 50 will work in most cases.

if your not concerned about cost of powder or lead and dont mind more recoil then i would suggest the 58 or 62 over the 54. both will be more effect then the 54 by a fair bit.

i dont mean to come across as upset as i am not. debate is what keeps this forum interesting.

-matt
 
Matt85 said,

“... the 54 will have more energy at greater distances but the heavier weight will also cause more drop.”

and

“all calibers will shoot equally flat if you can get them to the same velocity.”

I think you will find that neither of those statements is true. All objects fall at the same rate regardless of their weight. The key to the difference in trajectories is the velocity, and that extra energy retained by the heavier ball causes it to slow down less, which reduces drop, causing it to strike higher at long ranges than the lighter balls. So, less drop at distance for the heavier ball, not more, at equal MVs. Because of a difference in inertia/momentum, not in weight directly.

So, I think it would be true, as okawbow said, “My 62 cal shoots much flatter at the same velocity as my 50 cal with round balls”, and as Roundball said, “...with all things equal a heavier .54cal/.58cal ball will hold up better/further than a smaller/lighter ball.”

Spence
 
All projectiles after exiting the bbl are immediately affected by gravity.....that's why elevated sights "point" the bbl upwards w/ the resultant trajectory. Seeing gravity does affect the projectile after it exits the bbl, increased velocity causes the projectile to travel further w/ the same amount of drop as a projectile w/ lower velocity.

Hunting w/ MLers mainly involves distances of say 120 yds or less w/ usual MVs of 1200-1800 ft/sec. Loading a .62 caliber to the same MV as a .50 caliber, say 1800 ft/sec. can be done, but will punish the shooter....most wouldn't load their .62s to 1800 ft/sec. because it's not practical.

Whether the ballistics of reasonable big game hunting calibers favor smaller or larger calibers w/ the same MV is only academic because of the restricted range...we're not talking 200 yd shots....but many shots w/in 50 yds. The ballistic differences aren't discernible at 50 yds......Fred
 
heavier balls have more drop not because gravity effects them differently but because you will not likely achieve the same velocities as smaller rounds. at least not without severe recoil being dumped on your shoulder. as said, a 62 will shoot just as flat as a 50 but will require silly amounts of powder to do so. most people adjust for this lack in velocity and rainbow like trajectory by adjusting the point of aim.

with smaller calibers you can use managable powder loads to reach the desired velocities. a 45 cal will easily shoot flat out to 100 yards with a very managable powder load. a 62 cal can shoot equally flat out to 100 yards but will require a very uncomfortable powder load.

-matt
 
Well, depends on what you want to talk about. The Gods of Ballistics don't care about the pain, only the physics, so recoil is not a consideration when discussing trajectories. If you want to just talk about practical hunting loads, that's a different game.

Whichever, larger balls don't have more drop because they weigh more, and all calibers don't shoot equally flat at the same velocities.

Spence
 
i assumed that since this was a question about hunting that we were talking about practical hunting loads.

if we want to go into the realm of possible ballistics we need to move this discussion to a different part of the forum. which might be a good idea since i think we are starting to take this puppy off topic.

-matt
 
Matt85 said:
if we want to go into the realm of possible ballistics we need to move this discussion to a different part of the forum. which might be a good idea since i think we are starting to take this puppy off topic.

-matt

Once a puppy gets off target, the wife yells & I end up renting a carpet cleaner :rotf: So back to hunting; Memphis, I did not see a time frame so I go back to shoot some then buy, in the spring you should be able to find a shoot, or Rendezvou. You might be able to fire half a dozen rifles or more just by showing an intrest.

I'm bringing a guy shooting next month cuz he said "Man I've never shot a Black powder rifle, but I always wanted to." I can fix that :grin:

Just a hint (got this from my father) If you have a ring on, take it off before you handle the rifle. A little respect at the start gets you invited to handle a lot more guns. :wink:
 
Not to be agrumentative, but I believe this thread is exactly on topic, especially since the relevant aspects are the physics involved and possible performance, while recoil and powder amounts used are irrelevant. Let me explain. Regarding the recoil, some here seem to be gluttons for punishment and combined with their recoil tolerance and desired results, recoil truly does not matter. I'm not saying that they don't have a limit, but their limit is not the same as some of us who have old injuries to deal with or just don't like recoil. So recoil is irrelevant in this discussion because recoil tolerance is so varied and is not a constant variable, which varies with different shooters, different stocks, different barrel profiles, gun weights, etc, etc.

Now to powder charges. We have varying "disposable" income levels here. Some of us are more concerned with the cost per shot than others, so that is also, once again, irrelevant due to being inconsistent. Just using myself as an example, I have less money left over for playing now that I have a mortgage payment, and a truck payment, and other bills associated with a house and life in general, than I did when I was living in the barracks (and making quite a bit less than I do now overall) but my only bill was a motorcycle payment, and insurance and gas for the bike. Back then, I had more guns than I do now, and a stockpile of ammo for them all, and went and shot them all every chance I had. I used to go through a minimum of 500rds of centerfire ammo per week. I can no longer afford to do that due to various responsibilities. Not a complaint, just a fact. Back then, I didn't care if I was shooting my .32 with a 20gr load of FFFG, or my .50 with 100grs, because I could afford to. Now, I still shoot, just not as much. But I don't believe that any of us has a place to say how much powder is too much for someone else to shoot per shot, especially since we are paying for our own powder, not anyone elses. Due to using my guns for hunting, I use the same load for hunting as I do for targets. That means 20 in my .32, 70 in my .50, and 80 in my .54. We all know I don't need 80grs to get that .54" ball through a piece of paper, but I use it so all my shots with this rifle have the same point of impact and I know what it does at all ranges out to my maximum hunting range.

Now I can't afford to feed a .62 enough powder to drive it as fast as I can my .32, .45, .50, etc, and wouldn't even if I could due to a bad shoulder, but I also know through experience with various weapons over the years that Spence and the others above are right where it comes to performance of larger/heavier calibers as opposed to the small ones. I have just as much fun shooting my .32 as I do my .54, but each has performance characteristics that make them better suited to some tasks than others. And we can't change physics just with wishful thinking. We also can't make the argument that one is flatter than shooting than the other unless we start out by leveling the field. The argument above sounds like someone saying that my .32 will shoot flatter with a 20gr powder load than my .54 will with the same 20gr powder load, we all know that. But what will give us a true comparison is loading to the same velocities, regardless of what the powder charge is that has to be used to achieve that same velocity. If we do this, the larger calibers will recoil more, but they will also shoot flatter over long range. This won't be noticeable over 25 or 50yds, but will start to make a difference at 100, and the further out we place the target, the more of a difference we will see in favor of the larger caliber.
 
I have a .32,.54 and a .62 cal.i also owned a.50 t/c hawken and i can say barrel length has a lot to do with powder charge and velocity.I shoot 90gr out of my .62 and can acheive good results out to 100 yrds and to me thats my max.My .54 renegade shoots about 80gr and 75 yrd max.My .62 is a virginia rifle with a 42" barrel and i find much more accurate.As for recoil i dont see a difference and i say shoot what you feel comfortable with.i have shot deer with the .50 and .54 and they all died .I bout a .62 for big game for elk and moose because i what a bigger hole.
 
Matt85 said:
i assumed that since this was a question about hunting that we were talking about practical hunting loads.

if we want to go into the realm of possible ballistics we need to move this discussion to a different part of the forum. which might be a good idea since i think we are starting to take this puppy off topic.

-matt
:shake: :shake: New hall monitor??
 
roundball said:
hanshi said:
Maybe the best advice is just to use what you're comfortable with. :v
:grin:
Ya think? LOL
These kinds of threads are always the same....they start out looking for 'opinions'...folks start giving opinions and sooner or later somebody gets their panties in a wad that anyone could possibly have an opinion different than theirs...ie: dare to suggest a larger caliber...LOL...then all the catch-phrases, hype and bluster starts and it goes rapidly downhill from there.
:grin:
Human nature at work...all very predictable and usually humorous to watch
actually the OP did not ask for "opinions" or experience with eastern game he asked

"Anyone have any experience with a .54 PRB for big game, bear, elk, mule deer, etc.?"

and FWIW - I grew up in the east hunting deer and relating that experience to western big game is not the same thing at all anymore than some one's "opinion" without the experience - and that statement is based on beaucoup years experience (and not just opinion) hunting and guiding lots of easteners here in the West
 
George said:
Matt85 said,

“... the 54 will have more energy at greater distances but the heavier weight will also cause more drop.”

and

“all calibers will shoot equally flat if you can get them to the same velocity.”

I think you will find that neither of those statements is true. All objects fall at the same rate regardless of their weight. The key to the difference in trajectories is the velocity, and that extra energy retained by the heavier ball causes it to slow down less, which reduces drop, causing it to strike higher at long ranges than the lighter balls. So, less drop at distance for the heavier ball, not more, at equal MVs. Because of a difference in inertia/momentum, not in weight directly.

So, I think it would be true, as okawbow said, “My 62 cal shoots much flatter at the same velocity as my 50 cal with round balls”, and as Roundball said, “...with all things equal a heavier .54cal/.58cal ball will hold up better/further than a smaller/lighter ball.”

Spence
Spence, your first hand experience & knowledge are always on target...
 
Lonegun1894 said:
Not to be agrumentative, but I believe this thread is exactly on topic, especially since the relevant aspects are the physics involved and possible performance, while recoil and powder amounts used are irrelevant. Let me explain. Regarding the recoil, some here seem to be gluttons for punishment and combined with their recoil tolerance and desired results, recoil truly does not matter. I'm not saying that they don't have a limit, but their limit is not the same as some of us who have old injuries to deal with or just don't like recoil. So recoil is irrelevant in this discussion because recoil tolerance is so varied and is not a constant variable, which varies with different shooters, different stocks, different barrel profiles, gun weights, etc, etc.

Now to powder charges. We have varying "disposable" income levels here. Some of us are more concerned with the cost per shot than others, so that is also, once again, irrelevant due to being inconsistent. Just using myself as an example, I have less money left over for playing now that I have a mortgage payment, and a truck payment, and other bills associated with a house and life in general, than I did when I was living in the barracks (and making quite a bit less than I do now overall) but my only bill was a motorcycle payment, and insurance and gas for the bike. Back then, I had more guns than I do now, and a stockpile of ammo for them all, and went and shot them all every chance I had. I used to go through a minimum of 500rds of centerfire ammo per week. I can no longer afford to do that due to various responsibilities. Not a complaint, just a fact. Back then, I didn't care if I was shooting my .32 with a 20gr load of FFFG, or my .50 with 100grs, because I could afford to. Now, I still shoot, just not as much. But I don't believe that any of us has a place to say how much powder is too much for someone else to shoot per shot, especially since we are paying for our own powder, not anyone elses. Due to using my guns for hunting, I use the same load for hunting as I do for targets. That means 20 in my .32, 70 in my .50, and 80 in my .54. We all know I don't need 80grs to get that .54" ball through a piece of paper, but I use it so all my shots with this rifle have the same point of impact and I know what it does at all ranges out to my maximum hunting range.

Now I can't afford to feed a .62 enough powder to drive it as fast as I can my .32, .45, .50, etc, and wouldn't even if I could due to a bad shoulder, but I also know through experience with various weapons over the years that Spence and the others above are right where it comes to performance of larger/heavier calibers as opposed to the small ones. I have just as much fun shooting my .32 as I do my .54, but each has performance characteristics that make them better suited to some tasks than others. And we can't change physics just with wishful thinking. We also can't make the argument that one is flatter than shooting than the other unless we start out by leveling the field. The argument above sounds like someone saying that my .32 will shoot flatter with a 20gr powder load than my .54 will with the same 20gr powder load, we all know that. But what will give us a true comparison is loading to the same velocities, regardless of what the powder charge is that has to be used to achieve that same velocity. If we do this, the larger calibers will recoil more, but they will also shoot flatter over long range. This won't be noticeable over 25 or 50yds, but will start to make a difference at 100, and the further out we place the target, the more of a difference we will see in favor of the larger caliber.
LG, you're 100% correct on all accounts...
 
Hope this is what you're looking for Memphis, cuzz it's all over the map.

I'll add one more thought, then I think I'll drop out before guys get to name calling. Less of it these days on the forum (thanks to Claude and his good moderators), but I'm still gun shy.

I'll mix in some practical experience. Frankly I don't give a diddly poop about flatness of larger balls, physics or not. In reality when I feel the need to be using a bigger ball, I also feel the need to be getting closer before I shoot.

Getting closer just goes with bigger game. I don't know a soul who would try a 100+ yard shot on a moose for example and darned few who will do so with elk. They're bigger targets and easier to hit, so why not? You want do deliver more power on target and you want to be extra precise on where you put the ball.

Frankly I wouldn't join the hunting party with anyone who was setting up for 100+ yard shots on either. With modern guns I've wasted a whole lot of my own hunting time following up game other guys have wounded at long range, and I'm just not going to put up with it now that I've switched to muzzleloaders.

They're short range arms and debates about long range trajectory are so much digestive gas in a whirlwind.
 
I have to admit that when I first began looking for a side lock I had the intentions of a .50 cal using PRB for medium game to maybe 100 yds, and using a conical for anything bigger as I'd love to move to the southern portion of the Rockies.

When I punch the numbers in for a .54 cal PRB it shows a optimal game weight of only 110 lbs at 100 yds with 115 grns of Pyrodex P.

I've read the many stories and have been told that I cannot use modern understanding with traditional projectiles. The fact that a RB passes through a deer more often than not (.50 cal) seems to say enough, which is what lead me to wanting to give it a go.

And then I see, when I've punched in the numbers for conicals that, despite much higher numbers, it still gives an optimal game weight much lower than I hoped. And I wonder what parameters this calculator was given.

I chose a .50 cal because I felt the options were much more open, and I could even benefit from higher BC's with a conical if I were to hunt elk or some other large game.

I've read here how you still need to get close. How close is close? I assumed within 100 yds.

And what kind of max (or your hunting load) load can you use from your side/flint lock with a PRB with 2/3F?

I'm thinking that I'll eventually buy a .54 cal percussion barrel for my stock...
 
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