A Tale of Two Calivers (picture intense)

[Alden]

One of these calivers is better than the other to my mind's eye. In fact, the smaller, lighter-colored, one from Pirate Fashions isn't even a caliver but a petronel in design, size, and caliber that is going back to them this week. The other is from a competent, professional, gunbuilder who shall remain nameless. They were ordered at around the same time. Pirate Fasions' was pushing six months to ship and the other just a few. The latter WAS 29% more expensive. Worth it? You be the judge. Let's literally take a look and compare and contrast the two...







Pirate muzzle


Pirate on bottom


Pirate on left


Pirate on bottom -- note ramrod would not fit back into stock without risk of probably breaking!


Pirate on bottom


Pirate on bottom -- the barrels show difference in finish at the very least, but here note the difference between a "wedding band" (going from octagonal-to-round) and the Pirate's stepped down "I-don't-know-WHAT-to-call-it"! Note wood around pins as well.




Pirate barrel pictured from top


Trigger areas - Pirate on bottom


Trigger area detail - first the nice one.




Note Pirate wood repair


And everyone appreciates a good butt




Starting to look at the locks out, the refined one






And the Pirate's -- note it was loose and sloppy. Note welded-on nut! The too-small, tiny, main spring didn't even engage the entire travel of the action which you can see.










And some practical if not decent inletting


...and now some Pirate inletting -- you can see their overall lack of quality wood-to-metal fit all over the photos


There'e epoxy repair in this that is a little hard to see


Let's look at the lock on - the Pirate is obviously on the bottom






The Pirate...




And the professionally made and positioned one which we'll get back to as we examine the cock in more detail


Here are proper cock with and without slowmatch


Note the length of the match required to engage pan properly




And here is a Pirate's idea of a cock and match!


Ever see a piece of string that could hold itself perfectly still that was that long!?




Pans? Pirate on the left


Now let's look at a proper pan - note the screw key didn't come from a hardware store




Note the individual fine hamdmade parts fit to the pan and barrel and how well the pan is fit to the gun




And how a Pirate does it


Now here the cock is in closed position...


Right on target


Here's the Pirate's cock too far from the tiny pan


I had to cut the match to keep it perfectly tight and it was brand new just to make the picture work or else you couldn't see how poor, and unfunctioning, this lock is




The match barely gets to the pan under the best, controlled, for picture-taking, conditions, and at the wrong angle in any case.


So, see any difference(s) and which would you want? To me, one is simply a bad highschool shop project that should be embarassing to its maker and insulting to its purchaser, me, whilst the other is a professional custom reproduction, a thing of beuaty, and a joy forever...

 

[cynthialee]

:shocked2:

I can not believe that a business was so stupid as to let that piece of garbage out of their shop.
It literally looks like a high school shop project made by committee. I highly doubt it has even been proofed properly. I wouldn't shoot it.

Well that is what you get for doing business with a pirate?

The other matchlock is a rather nice firearm. I keep arguing with myself over the merits of a matchlock.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Not counting workmanship that looks like I did it...the "Pirate" gun has some interesting shape features that greatly resemble a few illustrations in John Tincey's book, "The Spanish Armada" by Osprey. Both English and Spanish 'calivermen' carry pieces not unlike the shorter gun. The originals seem a bit longer and don't have the Daffy Duck features of bizarre barrel rings and the cannon muzzle ring thingy!!??!! Too bad they can't do a bit of serious research and spend a little time making it right!

You need to compare notes with Teleoceras, he's about as knowledgeable in the matchlock field as anyone I've ever known. Not to mention, when it came to naming his 'ladies', he broke out the German Myth volume on Teutonic names for ladies!! He covered about every Valkyrie in the book :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[BillinOregon]

Um, I'll take the one at the top please Mr. Alden ...

 

[Alden]

Thanks Wes;
There was as much confusion and interchangeable use of the terms for firearms in the period as today which your post demonstrates.

The 30" barrel, .50 caliber bore, and its usual stock being 1-1/2" shorter than the one made for me in the photos (because I did not want to fire it against my chest) put it pretty clearly in the petronel class to me (though admittedly the stock isn't quite as extreme as many typically preconceive).

Call it an harquebus generally if you must call it something other than a petronel specifically. But, what it ain't is a caliver any more than the diminutive thing would be a musket. Think of it as a "carbine" or a really big pistol in this case.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Oh yeah, the terminology gets kind'a goofy pretty quick. Hard to know where to draw the line on some terms...and when you do, somebody can prove you wrong! I like to go with matchlock and let the fine points fall where they may! Noticed in the book mentioned, many of the period illustrations of "calivermen"(their term)that althoughthe butts swept down like those fired off the chest, the guys didn't appear to be wearing breastplates...I figure it's either artistic license or really tough ole farts living back then! :wink: :haha:

 

[Billnpatti]

It is obvious to me that Pirate Fashions sold you a gun shaped tomato stake. After reading your post, I immediately went to their website to see what they offered. Their guns have all of the appearance of being made just for looks, not for actual shooting. They seem to be more of a costume shop. I would have SERIOUS doubts about actually firing one of their guns with any kind of projectile. They don't say just who hacks out their guns but I wouldn't be surprised to find "Made in India" :barf: stamped somewhere on it. But, what can you expect when the prices on their guns are in the range of $150 to $200. :idunno: It's pure junk! Not worth the postage. :cursing: Send it back!

 

[rickystl]

Alden: Now that you've posted this radical comparison, you better hurry and send it back for a refund before they change their mind. :haha:
Thanks so much for posting. It's fairly obvious they don't really know what these guns are supposed to look like. Looks like you may have done us all a service.
I went to their Web-Site and found the following Spanish Escopeda. The lock on this gun seems to complicated for them to make there locally (?). But the lock anyway looks very much Indian made. Are any other of the Indian suppliers carrying this gun? If they assemble guns at their location, maybe they would sell me the lock only? Your thoughts? Thanks again for posting. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[rickystl]

Woops.....forgot the photo:

 

[Alden]

Ricky;
The photo of their Catalan escopeta miquelet looks very familiar to me because...



...it is MINE! Check the oak grain -- lol.

Such guns are different. Uncommon for sure (though not my first or only miquelet).

First let me tell you guys that the Pirates are NOT having their own guns made in India though they sell complete India-made guns too. I spent some time over the past year and a half chatting with their gunsmith, Mike, and even have his cellphone number. They seem(ed) decent enough folk frankly -- and serious about the safe shooting sports.

These Pirates have been expanding their little novelty photography studio into riding the wave of pirate-stuff interest for some time. This includes a venture into the custom-made blackpowder gun realm. They seem overwhelmed. The opportunity was theirs to lose -- and guess what they've squandered with these shipments to me.

I will say that in the middle of preparing that miquelet for me they scraped their old design (which they had sold a couple of others of but also learned more about) and updated it. I was the son-of-Guinea Pig. Mike did a decent job. Not perfect, even handmade looking if you know what I mean, but intentionally-robust including knowing I reenact.



It should be the best miquelet they can do -- took long enough though they took care of me by upgrading the barrel for free (instead of using tapered high pressure tube) when a half a year later I finally made a real complaint.

In any case, the results gave me confidence to buy two more items almost on a whim. And sadly have to return them.

I'd like to think these recent embarassments, these in-your-face-failures of theirs, were done by the apprentice gunmaker they hired unbeknownst to Mike or Captain Tiger Lee of the South China Sea. I don't remember her name...

 

[Billnpatti]

Surely, someone else makes these rifles. Pirate Fashions cannot be the only place that has them. Who wants junk in their gun safe? Given your experiences with Pirate Fashions, if it were me, I'd scratch them off my list. Of course, I am more than just a bit picky about my guns. They have to be good shooters, they have to be well made and they have to look nice or else, I see to it that they stay in the store or go to someone else who is not as selective as I am.

But, you know what you want and are willing to accept and it's your money so do as ye will and God bless ya.

 

[rickystl]

Alden: Thanks so much for your response. YES, that Oak stock is interesting. I like the looks of of the whole gun.
Do you know where they purchased the lock? Or did you provide it for them?
Thanks, Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[Alden]

Bill, duh; they're off my dance card and I presume everybody's here.

 

[Alden]

Ricky;
I meant to look closely at the grain patterns of the oak stock in their website picture you copied and in my miquelet I added a picture of after you -- the picture they show on their website is clearly of MY gun. Probably the finest thing they ever sold, sorry to say.

Mike there, allegedly, made the lock but I could no longer swear that he did...

 

[Wes/Tex]

Back when Narragansett Armes was still in business, they did their Spanish Catalan or English Snaphance in curly ash. It made a really interesting look to the stocks on those two types. Have to admit, Don't believe I've ever seen ask used on gun stocks...at least not that I recall. If you can find someone to do a descent one for you, curly ash isn't a bad way to go.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Back when Narragansett Armes was still in business, they did their Spanish Catalan or English Snaphance in curly ash. It made a really interesting look to the stocks on those two types. Have to admit, Don't believe I've ever seen ask used on gun stocks...at least not that I recall. If you can find someone to do a descent one for you, curly ash isn't a bad way to go.

 

[Teleoceras]

Alden:

Why keep the top builder's name a secret? That looks like a Leonard Day piece to me! That gentleman is an artist! :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[Wes/Tex]

Alden:
Why keep the top builder's name a secret? That looks like a Leonard Day piece to me! That gentleman is an artist!

And if anybody would know...! :thumbsup:

I was hoping you'd weigh in here. Figured if there was anybody here who could fill in the blanks it would be thee! :wink:

 

[MacRob46]

These folks are what I consider to be "enthusiasts." Enthusiasts, in this context, get excited about something and dive right into it, before doing any research or evaluating their skills and abilities to even be involved in whatever pursuit with which they have become enamored. Someone mentioned that they are taking advantage of the interest in pirates and that follows along with my ideas of what enthusiasts do. I meet a lot of these folks in the Scottish-American world - they are the ones with the 1860 US cavalry sabers hanging from their kilts and the blue face paint. They wear armor with their modern kilts and frequently talk about the Templars saving Robert the Bruce's army at Bannockburn. Speaking of kilts, Pirate Fashions also sells pseudo-Scottish kilts and have some "information" on them on their site, most of which is wrong. I sent them an e-mail pointing out the errors but of course there has been no reply. I think, therefore, that it is understandable that they would jump into making pirate era black powder guns without taking the time to learn about them or how to make them. It is too bad for them and for their customers that they did not assess their ability and ideas before they hung out their shingle. Also, I hope they have some good liability insurance for the gun making side of the business.

 

[rickystl]

Alden: Thanks for your response. Your photo looks much better than their catalog photo. :haha: Yes, it's obvious that it is your gun. No mistake due to the grain pattern.
I asked about the lock in the event there was a source to purchase miquelet locks other than TRS. I seem to recall there is a supplier of lock kits in the U.K. that offers a miquelet lock. But the name escapes me at the moment. Maybe this is where your lock came from?
In any event, I really like your escopeda. The oak stock really gives it an interesting look. I like it. :thumbsup: Thanks for the info.
Speaking of your Leonard Day Matchlock, here is a pic of my Leonard Day with an English Lock. Notice the stock and overall similarities. Rick. :hatsoff: