All of this misinformation is really getting old

[Jakeytoo]

They always told me : "Take the caliber of the bullet and convert it in grains, after that work and adjust the charge to your rifle".
I ever do this way, and it was ever the good way and sometime the just weight of powder at the first shot...

That’s the way I work out my loads.

 

[Irishmusket]

yesterday i took my 50 hawken for a stroll. when i got to my shooting range i discovered i had left my measure in the garage. well weren't any way i was going to shuffle back to the garage and get it , it was 200 feet away for petes sake.
so i used the cupped hand and cover the ball trick. first shot with a .490 ball and a .010 spit patch was a bulls eye at 50 yards. i shot 10 loads that way and had a 10 shot 3" group. i was impressed. think if i can get my but out of this chair i will go measure what that load was.

Erwan, i think personally that method is a great starting point.

yesterday i took my 50 hawken for a stroll. when i got to my shooting range i discovered i had left my measure in the garage. well weren't any way i was going to shuffle back to the garage and get it , it was 200 feet away for petes sake.
so i used the cupped hand and cover the ball trick. first shot with a .490 ball and a .010 spit patch was a bulls eye at 50 yards. i shot 10 loads that way and had a 10 shot 3" group. i was impressed. think if i can get my but out of this chair i will go measure what that load was.

Erwan, i think personally that method is a great starting point.

You are right back in the day 17&18 &19 century this was common method used simple and very basic old school.

 

[deerstalkert]

i just checked the cover the ball thing. it came to 45 grains over the .490. FFG

 

[flntlokr]

what does boiling water do to my barrel ??? other than some minor flash rust

IMHO the boiling water doesn't do a damn thing that tepid or even cold water won't do, except help the bore dry faster, and create a haze of rust if i=the hot barrel doesn't get oiled almost immediately. I just use whatever comes out of the 'hot' tap with a couple of drops of detergent. Give it a rinse with water only, then dry patches until it is bone dry. Follow immediately with your favourite preservative (I like G96) on a clean patch, then use that patch to wipe down all the metal.

 

[George]

There are period references to its being done:

_A handbook for riflemen_, by William Duane, 1812
"The back woods men of the western frontier, place the ball in the palm of their left hand, and cupping the hand as much as possible, cover the ball with powder, and make that their charge."

_Audubon and His Journals_, Vol. II by Maria Audubon.
Describing a shooting contest in Kentucky, early 19th century:
"Each man cleans the interior of his tube, which is called wiping it, places a ball in the palm of his hand, pouring as much powder from his horn upon it as will cover it. This quantity is supposed to be sufficient for any distance within a hundred yards."

Describing a hunter loading his rifle before a raccoon hunt:
“He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped."

Sometimes they skipped the ball, just learned how big a pile of powder they needed.

_Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History, Hidatsa Eagle Trapping_, by Gilbert Livingston Wilson, 1928, interview of Wolf-chief 1915:

"A pin of hard June berry wood was used as a stopper for the powder horn. When loading the gun, I withdrew the pin with my teeth and poured the powder into the
palm of my hand."

Spence

 

[flntlokr]

i just checked the cover the ball thing. it came to 45 grains over the .490. FFG

I tested that a bunch of times and found it pretty variable. Ok for messing around, or if you forgot your measure, but not really good for repeatable results. If I remember, it went from about 40 to about 60, depending upon how open my hand was, sloppiness, etc. Found it a bit of a pain to get everything into the barrel as well. When involved in a 'fort shoot' or something like that, I pour a couple of measured loads into my hand with no ball ahead of time, just to see how big a pile I need, then go with that for the shoot.

 

[Crow-Feather]

Avoiding petroleum based oils is another myth. We use WD40, Rem oil, Ballistol, Barricade, EEZOX, RIG and a host of other oils. I get the same crusty ring with Ballistol and water for a patch lube as I get with bee's wax and olive oil.

It also depends on what you put in your bore for rust protection. And if you properly cleaned out the solvents and oils when you received your rifle from the dealer. That's when the very hot soapy water should be put to use.

I do not ever get a crud ring and I have used water soluable cutting oil, and Ballistol, both mixed with water, to lube my patches. I also use T/C bore butter to protect my bore.

 

[Bad Karma]

I don't like to be called old! I had rather be called over matured. I can remember when the Dead Sea wasn't even sick!
I have been taught a few things over the internet and the number one thing is ,""If it ain't broke don't fix it""!

For many folks, “Hey, if it ain’t broke, fix it until it is!” Seems like a more common mantra.

 

[PathfinderNC]

IMHO the boiling water doesn't do a damn thing that tepid or even cold water won't do, except help the bore dry faster, and create a haze of rust if i=the hot barrel doesn't get oiled almost immediately. I just use whatever comes out of the 'hot' tap with a couple of drops of detergent. Give it a rinse with water only, then dry patches until it is bone dry. Follow immediately with your favourite preservative (I like G96) on a clean patch, then use that patch to wipe down all the metal.

I do the same and it takes all of about four or five cleaning patches. I use cut-up athletic socks which are thick and absorbent. Motor oil after cleaning does just fine, too.

 

[ML48]

They weren't many accurate scales for centuries of black powder. Nor any way to specify the diameter of the powder grains, except to say about the size of the seed of an xxxx plant or flower. Guns came before the printing press, and 100 years after the printing press books were still super expensive. You could not buy a handy magazine at the sporting goods store with accurate scaled pictures and charts of specs with numbers.

No dividers measuring 100ths of an inch to help you when buying patch material. Cloth was way more expensive than powder or ball. And most bolts of cloth were not uniform in thickness, unless super high priced. So they didn't put a patch around their ball. And used rules of thumb to start up a load. Dump that trial load into a fabricated measure and then trim the measure down to try out different amounts of powder to test.

That was then, this is today. When hunting I'm more concerned with POI than doing the measuring from 100-200 years ago. That may still work but I have pre-measured tubes with powder, RB, and cap. I don't get concerned about how the 18th & 19th century boys did it. My concern is to put that animal down clean and fast....period.

 

[ML48]

At least they have a future as gun writers!

I see the same thing on the "Diesel" forums. I've built Detroits, Cummins, Cat, Perkins, Deutz, diesels professionally for heavy equipment for years. I own a F250 4x4, with 7.3L powerstroke. You can't believe some of the garbage spilled on these forums about repairs, best oils, best fuel filters, etc...leaves me speechless....

 

[TFoley]

Here's an article about why sperm oil was and is superior to almost all modern lubes. When I started with guns it was muzzle loaders and the hobby shop books said to lay in a supply of whale oil while you still could. So I went online and it was nowhere to be found any more. It applies to both old muzzle loaders or modern guns.https://www.cherrybalmz.com/post/secrets-of-1911-reliability-how-to-lube-for-maximum-performance

It also has the added benefit of stopping your whale from squeaking. But you have to 'cachelot' of them....

 

[ML48]

If you want some great lube with no chemicals: GO TO: bs-bp.com

 

[shorthair]

Education doesn't always enter in to the picture. There are at least 82 million that may be educated, with no common sense, and just plain stupid

Remember that common sense is the least common of all the senses.

 

[flntlokr]

I do the same and it takes all of about four or five cleaning patches. I use cut-up athletic socks which are thick and absorbent. Motor oil after cleaning does just fine, too.

my patches are mostly from worn-out pyjamas. I gave a bunch of dry ones to a fellow at a rendezvous, who had run out. He was spit-lubing. At the end, he was impressed and asked whatkind of cloth it was. i told him I punched them out of old gonchies; his face was priceless!

 

[ML48]

yesterday i took my 50 hawken for a stroll. when i got to my shooting range i discovered i had left my measure in the garage. well weren't any way i was going to shuffle back to the garage and get it , it was 200 feet away for petes sake.
so i used the cupped hand and cover the ball trick. first shot with a .490 ball and a .010 spit patch was a bulls eye at 50 yards. i shot 10 loads that way and had a 10 shot 3" group. i was impressed. think if i can get my but out of this chair i will go measure what that load was.

Erwan, i think personally that method is a great starting point.

Let me see here, unless you had binoculars, you had to walk 150' to check that target, but you couldn't walk 200' to get your measure. How far do you walk when your huntin'? Just yankin' your chain friend

 

[TFoley]

About the initial subject of the thread, may I ask a question : I began to shoot black powder sixty-four years ago (I was ten years old the first time) with my great-grandfather (veteran of the Franco-German 1870 war) and with my grandfather later. They always told me : "Take the caliber of the bullet and convert it in grains, after that work and adjust the charge to your rifle". I ever do this way, and it was ever the good way and sometime the just weight of powder at the first shot...Is it an urban legend (there was no Internet to read or learn this at that time) ?What do you think about ?

Please explain that system for me, Erwan.

 

[Shotgunblast]

Please explain that system for me, Erwan.

36 cal 36 grains or 50 cal 50 grains?

 

[ML48]

36 cal 36 grains or 50 cal 50 grains?

Makes excellent sense for a starting point.
Never heard that one before....thanks for the info

 

[TFoley]

I knew about the use of imperial measurements to give a rough estimation for a starter load, based on the fractional measurement of the bullet in inches, but knowing that Erwan is French, and also that only English-speakers refer to calibre as fractions of an inch I was trying to figure out how using a metric measurement, say 14,5mm could be translated into powder weight.