American Mountain Men

[Tanglefoot]

Just a brief and respectful response to LD's remark about acceptable firearms at an AMM camp: Please, please re-read the requirements Black Hand quoted. It says your firearm doesn't need to be custom made, but it also says that it must be "... as authentic as can be purchased." In my opinion, a DGW flintlock Pennsylvania Rifle or an 1803 Harper's Ferry replica from any of several sources would meet that requirement and cause no comment, but a TC flintlock - "Hawken" or otherwise - would not. There floats my stick.

 

[Bo T]

We seem to have about half a dozen members set up at our Friends of Spokane House camp in the summer. I'll try to post about the camp in about 6 months with more particulars.

 

[KHickam]

Spokane House, awesome was there at the first one and several after. Long before I was in AMM

 

[Rifleman1776]

you paraphrased from "histappmsn"

??? I don't know what you mean by that. My words were my own words.
I'm in the Arkansas Ozarks but age and health have put my rendezvous years behind me.

 

[Huntschool]

??? I don't know what you mean by that. My words were my own words.
I'm in the Arkansas Ozarks but age and health have put my rendezvous years behind me.

Rifleman1776:

I meant your feelings as they regarded what was said about VN Vets by histappmsn as it related to your experience. I assure you there was no ill intended. I suspect I should have used the word analogy rather than paraphrased.

Sorry to hear you cant make it out any more. I fear I am reaching that stage also with heart and COPD problems. Getting old is hell.

 

[Rat]

Getting old ain't for sissies.

 

[Bo T]

As I promised last year..There are going to be a number of AMM members at the Fur Trade Encampment in Spokane this weekend (June 8th and 9th). If you are interested in finding out more about The American Mountain Men, then there will be someone there to talk to you.

 

[Boom Stick]

I have also been interested in the AMM and have checked out the various sites, especially the Colorado site. It does have its appeal I will admit, but with a wife and 3 kids the investment of time, but most especially the money is an issue.

Let there be no mistake, there is definitely a HUGE monetary investment involved, and if you are not located anywhere near a group your financial investment will more than likely be almost doubled, or more compared to others. For example …

Location, location, location:

I currently live in El Paso, Texas and there is not a group / chapter anywhere close to me so travel costs will be a big factor, especially for all the overnight requirements that have to be completed – one per season plus a week long outing, right? That would require me to make a total of five long distance (a few hundred miles each) trips to get the basic requirements in to rise from Pilgrim. Then there will be other trips / outings for the following requirements – that will be quite the layout for travel expenses, do you not agree?

A second location factor / cost that living in Texas impacts, cost wise, is hunting and the ability to take game animals and be able to use the hides to learn to skin and tan, and the added bonus of using the hides for clothing and other items. Over 99% of the land in Texas is privately owned so hunting is a costly proposition – first you have to get a hunting license ($), then the private land owners charge out the arse to hunt their land / ‘purchase’ a hunting lease from them, or you can really bleed through the eyes spending anywhere from just south of $1000 to well north of a $3000 for a weekend hunt at a game ranch for the hides (and Meat) to make your clothes and kit. NOTE: If you can afford this option then please stop reading as you are not affected or concerned by any of the costs associated with AMM membership.

As an example, when I was still on active duty at Fort Bliss (El Paso), several of my fellow Soldiers and I researched group hunting trips to different locations in Texas as well as out of state and we even used a ‘Decision Support Matrix’ (a military decision making tool) to capture costs and compare value between several hunting packages. We quickly came to the conclusion that it was HUNDREDS of dollars cheaper to go through the hassle to get out of state hunting licenses in New Mexico.

So basically, for some it will definitely be cheaper to just purchase pre-treated leather for their clothing and gear.

Leather for Clothing and Accessories:

As discussed above, some people that live in states with better hunting opportunities can obtain the needed leather to make their clothing and kit over a couple of years with little extra costs, with the extra benefit of putting meat in the freezer. More power to them and I will be the first to admit that I am envious.

For those that are not so lucky or do not have the time or interest, they can purchase the needed materials from a business, local or online, such as Tandy Leather.

So, let’s break this down… I did some research online and these are approximate numbers of materials that are needed to get a basic kit together. I freely admit that actuals costs could / will be plus or minus $ in some categories as I am operating on best educated guesses here from internet sources and information from various clothing pattern packets – not a mountain man, never played one on TV …

Clothing patterns, 5 at $9.98 for a total of $49.45
A buckskin shirt requires 4 hides at $89.99 for a total of $359.96.
Buckskin pants requires 4 hides at $89.99 for a total of $359.96.
A Buckskin Jacket requires 4 hides at $89.99 for a total of $359.96
If you want a Capote / blanket also or instead for coat (costs $150.00 to $250.00, but bid low) $150.00.
Buckskin Moccasins require 1 hide at $89.99.
Rawhide bend for moccasin soles require 1 hide at $24.99.
Cowhide double shoulder to make belt(s), possibles bag, sling, and other accessories, 1 hide at S89.99.
Artificial Sinew, 270 yard spool for sewing, $16.99.
Leather lacing spool for sewing, $29.99.
Various needles for sewing, $15.99.
Felt hat blank, $42.50.
Wool Blanket for bedding, $150

So, just starting out, with the figures above a person is looking at an estimated low of approximately $1230.00 to $1740.00.

Obviously I am missing items and I freely admit that ‘I don’t know what I don’t know’, such as items like linen shirts and other clothing items; cold weather gear such as gloves and mitts, snow shoes and sleds; haversacks and packs; period correct items such as rifle loading and cleaning accessories; knife / knives, tomahawk / hatchet, eating utensils; maybe a period correct rifle; and dozens of other items great and small.

With this listing, by my warped way of thinking, it is very easy to reach or even surpass the previously stated $2000 easily in the first year – and that is before factoring in travel costs for anyone that is in a situation much like me where travel would be required to get the requirements checked off the list.

Daunting to say the least.

I will admit that I am interested AMM and wish that I was much closer to an existing group, hopefully when I move in the next 1 to 2 years I will get lucky and find a group within ‘spitting distance’. I'm also hopefully the VA will also get my last two health concerns addressed enough were I will not have any issues camping out again as I love sleeping out under the stars – time will tell.

 

[Bo T]

Boom Stick,
You might check out hunting wild pigs. When I was down in Texas a couple of decades ago I was told a lot of land owners would let you hunt them for minimal cost or just a guide fee. Also, you don't need buckskin clothing. Per my talk with AMM members it does need to be hand sewn.

 

[Boom Stick]

Bo T,

Good to know about the clothing, but ya gotta think that their thinking / stance about linen clothes having to be hand sewn is just … silly and makes no sense.

The mountain men left settlements, cities, with store bought clothes or just bought them at forts or rendezvous where they were shipped in. Buckskins were a necessity only after the cloth clothes rotted off your body. I have NEVER heard or read of a mountain man that carried a bolt or two of cloth and sat around the fire making clothes. I could be wrong and there may have been one or maybe two 'fancy boys' during the period that pranced around the fire and limp-wristed Indian hand signs while making shirts and ass-less pants in exchange for 'favors' ….

I can see them making buckskins but NOT linen clothing. Think about it. Although bolts of cloth would have taken up space and weight on their pack horses, it would have been much, much, less time consuming to just pull out some cloth and make a new shirt or pair of pants vs. the time (days) required to get the fat and hair off the hide and other prep work to tan it before it could even be cut and sewn. Plus it is much harder to sew leather vs. cloth. In the amount of time it would take to harvest enough animals for a shirt and to treat the hides just to be ready to be able to sew them, you could make yourself a dozen or more shirts.

As for hunting pigs, would love to take the .50 GPR out and test out some PRB loads on for performance data. Unfortunately, I have never been able - since 2007 - to find a land owner that would let me or my buddies 'help them out' with their feral pig problems. They all have their hands out wanting to get paid - to the tune of hundreds of dollars - which is 'funny' as the feral hog problem was a problem of the landowners making as they were using them for decades to make money on them. Unfortunately for the landowners, the problem got away from them and now the hogs are causing BILLIONS for dollars in land / crop / and water way destruction EVERY year and these same landowners cry to the legislature every year with their hands out for tax dollars to compensated for damage of their own making.

Sorry, but I'm not going to pay someone to help they take care of a problem of their making. If it is really is such an issue for them then I am more than willing to spend my time and money (for ammo) to shoot the hogs, but paying for the 'privilege'? Nope! I grew up back east and when a farmer or land owner had a pest issue we were invited to come out and take care of it, no issues or fees. Sometimes the owners would give us a box of shells or the wife would make us a lunch, but we never asked for anything.

Damnedest thing I've ever seen here is this one jackasses website … HELP! HELP! We need help with our hog problem, they are destroying our property! Click on the site and you get to discover how many HUNDREDS of dollars it will cost you to come out and shoot some hogs. Utter BS.

On a side note, I have bought and used some pig hide on some leather projects and it is good for bags and such, but is stretches way too much to use for clothing.

 

[KHickam]

The game animal taken need not be a big game animal, just that you hunt from a primitive camp in a primitive manner, and utilize the meat for food, this could be a squirrel, and it you cooked and ate it over a fire you have knocked out two requirements. I also went to a meat processor and bought deer hides in the raw to knock out the tanning requirement. You are in Texas as am I there are many ways to get your requirements if you are serious about it. I know of several camps of AMM brothers that are held out by Langtree?

Contact the Western Segundo Kraig Fallwall, who is a super brother and willing to help prospects as much as posdible. Catahoula Bill Vannoy is the Red River Brigade Booshway and is a good man. If you are truly interested they will help as much as they can. For almost two years I was the only AMM member in SD but still managed to get out of the ground and work on requirements.

 

[KHickam]

As to the cloth question on hand stitched clothing trade cloth and goods to rendevous we're transported as well as lots of trading posts that had cloth. So, this is easily accomplished as well. I brain tanned enough deer hides and stitched them together, if a ham fisted ape like me can do it anyone can. Check processors I paid about $5 a green hide and I have done a around a couple hundred I guess now.

 

[David Veale]

Another option for buckskin exists, which is definitely cheaper but more work (and reward, of course). If there are any deer processors near you, they'll often sell you the hides that they keep (to sell to tanneries). Typically about $10 each around here in Michigan. Also, the last time I talked to our butcher (January) he said the price of a raw cowhide had dropped from around $80 to $12 due to the trade wars with China. Sheep skins are often free. So if you're interested in tanning some of your own hides but can't possibly get enough hunting in to supply yourself, contacting your local butcher might be just the ticket.

For those interested in doing their own tanning, the book "Deerskins to Buckskins" is invaluable -- particularly with regard to soft "braintan". For harder/stiffer leather, bark-tan is pretty easy and works well. You can find bark or shrubs with a high tannin content just about anywhere in the country you might live. I've tanned our own cowhides this way with some good results, though the softening process on large hides is nothing to take lightly!

 

[Huntschool]

I have also been interested in the AMM and have checked out the various sites, especially the Colorado site. It does have its appeal I will admit, but with a wife and 3 kids the investment of time, but most especially the money is an issue.

Let there be no mistake, there is definitely a HUGE monetary investment involved, and if you are not located anywhere near a group your financial investment will more than likely be almost doubled, or more compared to others.

Obviously I am missing items and I freely admit that ‘I don’t know what I don’t know’, such as items like linen shirts and other clothing items; cold weather gear such as gloves and mitts, snow shoes and sleds; haversacks and packs; period correct items such as rifle loading and cleaning accessories; knife / knives, tomahawk / hatchet, eating utensils; maybe a period correct rifle; and dozens of other items great and small.

With this listing, by my warped way of thinking, it is very easy to reach or even surpass the previously stated $2000 easily in the first year – and that is before factoring in travel costs for anyone that is in a situation much like me where travel would be required to get the requirements checked off the list.

Daunting to say the least.

I will admit that I am interested AMM and wish that I was much closer to an existing group, hopefully when I move in the next 1 to 2 years I will get lucky and find a group within ‘spitting distance’. I'm also hopefully the VA will also get my last two health concerns addressed enough were I will not have any issues camping out again as I love sleeping out under the stars – time will tell.

Boom Stick:

As was stated above, you might want to contact Kraig Fallwell our Western Segundo who is located in Texas. I'll PM you his listed phone number as well as mine if you want to talk.

I would also respectfully submit that a "can do" attitude regarding fulfillment of requirements is a good idea. I guess I can understand that there may be concerns regarding costs based on life and family but then we all have them involved in our recreational lives. Additionally, one is not required to start out with all the listed stuff. The skins can take a year or more to develop. Remember we represent men in or traveling to the Rocky Mountians so cloth is OK....

Just some thoughts...….​

 

[Boom Stick]

Gents,

I must apologize for my frustrations regarding the hunting situations here. I grew up back east where you could be out in the woods and set up within 30-40 minutes and all it cost was a hunting license, which was about $50-60 with the gun and archery tags - and it was easy to get permission to hunt on someone's land. Unfortunately, my last hunt, deer, was in 2002. If I wasn't deployed I was in the field training - command always chose hunting season do field training, they must have been card carrying PETA members …

Also, thanks for the information regarding getting hides from the processors, never thought of that and I should have as when I was growing up the processors had stacks of them outside their shops during deer season. I would have to look, but I doubt there are any game processors here in El Paso, being in the middle of the desert is not conducive to game / hunting. I'll definitely check though.

Being a retired / disabled vet, I can definitely save up the pieces-of-eight to get the clothing items together over time. How fast I can do it also greatly depends on what stupid decision or scheme my wife pulls next that will cost me, I swear she is trying to put me in an early grave. One of my Army buddies and I are actually wanting to put together the clothing items and gear for a primitive deer hunt back east where he lives. We both have caplock GPRs in .50 cal and are looking to do some PRB hunting together this fall. I was thinking of going the store bought route for the pants and shirt but make my own hunting frock, guess I could look at just hand sewing at some point. My main objections / concerns about the costs was more for a lot of others that have financial situations that are more challenging than me - 22 years looking after my Soldiers has left an impression.

Yes, I'm interested in the period and have been reading more about the FIW, AWI, the discovery and fur trade periods. My only real 'reservations' are a couple of health issues that I am trying get addressed with the VA. I'm finally getting movement on one and hopefully I'll have surgery before the end of the year and be good to go. The second is more daunting - severe sleep apnea. Seven concussions and I have some damage to the brain stem which causes me to stop breathing 18-22 seconds every minute / 1.5 minutes so I am 'chained' to using a CPAP every night or risk not ever waking up one night. Obviously taking a CPAP out in the woods is not an option - too delicate, not sanitary, and you cannot plug it to a tree for power …. Not sure if its true, but I've heard that Lewis and Clark had to leave their CPAPs behind because the were considered too 'modern' to take on their cross country trek.

Hopefully I can get something figured out.

 

[Huntschool]

Gents,

I must apologize for my frustrations regarding the hunting situations here. I grew up back east where you could be out in the woods and set up within 30-40 minutes and all it cost was a hunting license, which was about $50-60 with the gun and archery tags - and it was easy to get permission to hunt on someone's land. Unfortunately, my last hunt, deer, was in 2002. If I wasn't deployed I was in the field training - command always chose hunting season do field training, they must have been card carrying PETA members …

Also, thanks for the information regarding getting hides from the processors, never thought of that and I should have as when I was growing up the processors had stacks of them outside their shops during deer season. I would have to look, but I doubt there are any game processors here in El Paso, being in the middle of the desert is not conducive to game / hunting. I'll definitely check though.

Being a retired / disabled vet, I can definitely save up the pieces-of-eight to get the clothing items together over time. How fast I can do it also greatly depends on what stupid decision or scheme my wife pulls next that will cost me, I swear she is trying to put me in an early grave. One of my Army buddies and I are actually wanting to put together the clothing items and gear for a primitive deer hunt back east where he lives. We both have caplock GPRs in .50 cal and are looking to do some PRB hunting together this fall. I was thinking of going the store bought route for the pants and shirt but make my own hunting frock, guess I could look at just hand sewing at some point. My main objections / concerns about the costs was more for a lot of others that have financial situations that are more challenging than me - 22 years looking after my Soldiers has left an impression.

Yes, I'm interested in the period and have been reading more about the FIW, AWI, the discovery and fur trade periods. My only real 'reservations' are a couple of health issues that I am trying get addressed with the VA. I'm finally getting movement on one and hopefully I'll have surgery before the end of the year and be good to go. The second is more daunting - severe sleep apnea. Seven concussions and I have some damage to the brain stem which causes me to stop breathing 18-22 seconds every minute / 1.5 minutes so I am 'chained' to using a CPAP every night or risk not ever waking up one night. Obviously taking a CPAP out in the woods is not an option - too delicate, not sanitary, and you cannot plug it to a tree for power …. Not sure if its true, but I've heard that Lewis and Clark had to leave their CPAPs behind because the were considered too 'modern' to take on their cross country trek.

Hopefully I can get something figured out.

Boom Stick:

There are some things you need to know regarding your needs. I have provided my contact info in a PM/Conversation on here. Give me a call....

 

[WRustyLane]

Boom Stick,
I was wondering where I could plug in my CPAP machine at a rendezvous since there's no electricity in the bush. I was just thinking about that the other day. We must be on the same wavelength. I stop breathing at least 45 times per hour every night. I'm still having sleep studies done as they have diagnoised me with severe sleep apnea. My wife said that if we attend any rendezvous, we will have to stay in the motel/hotel brigade. She jumped the gun and got me a CPAP machine even before the final diagnosis and written prescription. So far I am feeling better every day after using the machine. So I know where you're coming from, my friend. I'm a Marine and know about using the VA for health care. I blame them for my stroke I had back in 2017 as well as my heart attack last fall. They had diagnoised me with "panic attacks" I had been having for the past 5 years which, in fact, were heart attacks. I had triple by pass surgery on Oct. 29, 2018, and have just completed my cardiac rehab a couple of weeks ago. I no longer trust the VA for my health care except for mental health. I still have PTSD from Vietnam. So we do have a few things in common. I hope for only the best for you. It took me several years to complete my mountain man "kit". The only buckskin I have is a jacket. I have made all of my powder horns, possibles bag, pokes, and straps as well as my shirts. I purchased a couple of pairs of drop front trousers over the years and I have a modified pair of mocs I took the zipper out and replaced with a piece of leather cord. I do have some camping gear which I will probably never use due to the sleep apnea. So hang in there; it takes time to complete all your gear.
Rusty in eastern Tennessee

 

[anticus]

I have a battery that runs my machine away from power. I used it at Oshkosh when we camped for the air show. The set up isn't cheap but worthwhile if you want to spend time under canvas.

 

[GomezMunoz1951]

"I was wondering where I could plug in my CPAP machine at a rendezvous since there's no electricity in the bush. I was just thinking about that the other day. We must be on the same wavelength. I stop breathing at least 45 times per hour every night. I'm still having sleep studies done as they have diagnoised me with severe sleep apnea. My wife said that if we attend any rendezvous, we will have to stay in the motel/hotel brigade."

I have used a CPAP since the late 1980's. We go to family reunion camping so I bought a battery that will run my CPAP for one and a half nights. They say it is supposed to last for three days but I have never got it to last that long. I bought a small generator at Harbor Freight for less than $100. I use that to recharge my battery. If all else fails your wife could take the battery and go somewhere the noise won't bother things and recharge it.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I don't have a cpap, but did a quick look online and it looks like batteries can be had for around $200 give or take.