An explaination.

[shortjack]

Now that everyone has vented, the great director Alfred Hitchcock said it best " and cut" :winking:

 

[Slamfire]

I've got one of those $60 rifles, and I cherish it, cause it was a present from my youngest son, and my first muzzleloader. The NRA never invited me to be the keynote speaker, so I'll never have one of Cecil's masterpieces, that I lust for, unless Charlton Heston's heirs will let me have one of his two.
Never could stand them Harleys though, I was brought up on Indians. :winking:

 

[blacksmithshoppe]

Jackie Brown, he's that Chinese Karate Actor guy right? I didn't know he made guns too. :grin:

 

[Old Charlie]

I think that the prices that Jackie Brown and Larry Williams ask for their guns are fair prices.

I have a theory about building guns. I prefer making 15 to 20 high quality guns per year than 50 to 70 or more pieces of low quality slapped together low quality junk.

I bet OL Jackie Brown is glad to know Mike Brooks thinks his guns are junk.
Old Charlie

 

[Mike Brooks]

I think that the prices that Jackie Brown and Larry Williams ask for their guns are fair prices.

I have a theory about building guns. I prefer making 15 to 20 high quality guns per year than 50 to 70 or more pieces of low quality slapped together low quality junk.

I bet OL Jackie Brown is glad to know Mike Brooks thinks his guns are junk.
Old Charlie

Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion. :winking: I generally don't say hurtfull things like that with out severe provacation. It's now too late to take it back so I'll have to stand by my statement.
One of the big problems in comparing hand built guns is that many people have never actually seen or handled a properly built quality gun. Photos on the internet rarely show what quality a gun actually is.
I've seen many of Jacky Browns guns over the years. He purposfully makes a gun that is inexpensive and will usually function. That is his goal, to make the chepest quickest built gun he can so he can make a sale. There are several other builders who have exactly the same business practice. Cheap = lots of quick sales.
There are other builders who approach the business from another angle. The best parts and carefully built fine fineshed and decorated guns that command a much higher price. These guns have extemly tight inletting, the metal work is hand polished, the stocks aren't chunky or wobbly, they have attractive archetecture that is correct in style and they function flawlessly with out fail.
This may come as a shock to many of you, but my prices are on the lower end of custom work. Many of my peers charge several thousand dollars more for the same gun than I do. It all depends on how much the custome is willing to pay for an individuals work. I and all the most popular high end gunmakers have all the work they need and are backlogged for years at the prices they charge. There is a market for high dollar guns, the money is out there. There is also a market for low end guns. It just depends on the builders skill level and what market he choses to build for.
I've often wondered why more high end gun makers don't participate on boards like this. I think I found out yesterday why they don't. :haha:

 

[jbrowngunmaker]

Mike,
I'm a bit surprised at you. I thought more highly of you than to say my guns are inexpensive and "usually" function. I've never felt that I throwed guns together just to make a quick sale. My advertisements says that my guns are guaranteed for life, either yours or mine. You don't do that with cheap, throwed together guns. I simply prefer to build guns that anybody can own if they want one. :applause: I applaud you for having the desire and capability to build "high end" guns. I don't slam you for being snobbish so I would appreciate if you wouldn't slam me for being the common man's gunmaker. I love my common folks and there are a lot of us. :grin:

Jackie

 

[tom hargrove]

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
no matter what the pak says ,jackie you will be the common mans builder.you are the best. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :winking:

 

[Mike Brooks]

As I said above , I don't usually say hurtfull things unless severly provoked. I did in the end say those hurtfull things and there's no going back, I'll have to stand by what I said.
If you consider me snobbish, that's fine. Those that know me know differently.
Ain't nothing wrong with common folks, I'm one and all the people I build guns for are quite common too. Most folks I build guns for save for several years before they take the jump.

 

[davy]

To me there are two criteria for choosing and purchasing a long rifle. They are ... what I like, and what I can afford.

From the look of things that I have seen there are some beautiful rifles mde by the gentlemen on this website, and maybe one of these fine days I can save up and get one of them, as currently I cannot. But that does not mean that I do not want one! The fact is the choice should be the buyers in that what he wants to spend on and are able to get for himself.

Now I am not sure how all this started, nor do I think it is important .. but I do think that it has gone on far enuff, and we just do not know how to shut it off, or turn it down. We CAN do better if we are big enuff and care enuff to do so! We as community of friends are not gaining anything with this. Thats like an argument about Cadillacs and Chevies. You get what YOU want and you pay for it as well.

So be it ... lets stop bickering and being petty about this, and act like the fine upstanding woodsmen we would like to emulate with all this fine hardware we have have availabe to us from these gentlemen & gunmakers ... be it Caddys or Chevies. Lets celebrate our brotherhood and similarities ... NOT our differences I say! My hat is off to all of them! :hatsoff:

Davy

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

I think if you can't afford or admire a Mike Brooks gun you should have just stayed out of that thread. The post was about a Mike Brooks smoothbore, not a Jackie Brown. Just stick to the topic and misunderstandings won't happen (as often).

That is probably the only worthwhile post in this entire, unnecessary, self-serving thread. Shame on you T.N. Frank, you start an argument then try to make excuses. :bull: You only make your self look foolish. Mr. Brown, you may want to see how this started as an unprovoked attack on Mike's work:
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/198393/[/url]

Sorry, looks like someone is using you...

 

No matter how much you spend on a gun, there is always another one out there that costs more. To a low-end-of-the-pay-scale blue collar guy (like some of my friends)a Lyman GPR is big bucks. To one friend who still hunts with banged up old JC Higgins bolt action 20 gauge, my field grade Browning O/U is a dream gun--but to me it is a plain working gun next to another guy's engraved Perrazzi. The Perrazzi owner can only look up to the handmade Italian or English guns above him in price (and quality). To be sure the old JC Higgins will down game as well as the Perrazzi. IT DOES NO GOOD TO COMPARE YOURSELF OR YOUR THINGS TO OTHERS. You then can only set yourself above others or feel bad in comparison to those "above you". Be happy with what you have or strive to improve your lot, but criticisms do noone any good. I am not a snob because I have a Browning and my friend has a battered JC Higgins--and another friend is not a snob because he has a Perrazzi and I don't--neither do I resent him for it. The first custom rifles I owned I made myself 'cause I could not afford what I wanted. The first custom rifle I acquired from another maker was obtained used in a trade for one of my home-made rifles and modest cash (and it was a Keith Casteel, worth several thousand dollars I am told). Having made custom rifles (before arthritus set in) I appreciate what Mike Brooks and others like him do. He does not charge outrageous prices for his labor--I can think of several professions that do, but not Mike. Cost of materials alone for a decent rifle generally run over $600, alot more for certain models and wood grades. I have seen very nice rifles made for ~ $650 in years past, but they were made by local artisans who were more hobbiests than professional gun makers. One of them recently put out his new smooth rifle on a table at a rondy and was asking $1200 for it. A year ago he would charge ~$800 for it and two years ago ~$700. He wised up.

 

[Coot]

Well it seems that this thread just doesn't have an end so I will make a simple proposal:

I have never owned or shot a Mike Brooks or a Jackie Brown gun. If all the posters will just get together & send me one (or two) of both fowler and rifle from each maker, I will do a fair, thorough & impartial test & report back. I will need a small fee (only to cover the powder & ball) & will have a report back to the forum in just a few years. :grin:

 

Well it seems that this thread just doesn't have an end so I will make a simple proposal:

I have never owned or shot a Mike Brooks or a Jackie Brown gun. If all the posters will just get together & send me one (or two) of both fowler and rifle from each maker, I will do a fair, thorough & impartial test & report back. I will need a small fee (only to cover the powder & ball) & will have a report back to the forum in just a few years. :grin:

Now Coot, that's a pretty good proposition. It should be done by more than one juror though. Count me in on this. :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Mikey the Barbarian]

I own two of Mike Brooks guns and I can assure you I have my priorites correct. If I wake up and the house is on fire, Ill take my M. Brooks guns out and shout back in and try to wake the missis. And ill tell her to grab my hunting bag and powder horn on the way out!,,,,,seriously,,,I looked longgg and hardddd at the best value for my dollar before I ever had a custom gun built. I narrowed it down to Mike Brooks. I will never loose a dollar with one of his guns. And just ask anyone that knows me if I use'm... Mike,,,YOU da man.

 

[TN.Frank]

Mike, can you really sit there and tell me that either of these guns are "chunky" or poorly built? Come on now, both point and shoot as well(if not better) then just about ANY guns that I've ever owned. Rebel can attest to how accurate his J.B. built smoothbore is and how reliable the Lg.Siler lock is. How many shots do you have on that flint now Rebel, 115? To say that just because something is affordable to us "common" folk it's "junk" is utter nonsense. Ok, you put some frills like wire inlay and such on the guns you build but does it make em' shoot any better, I don't think so. I'll stick with my J.B.'s anyday of the week, thank you very much. As when I get my tax return ya' know what. I'm really thinking about having him build a nice 20ga/62cal smoothbore pistol up for me to go with the two long guns that I have. Then I'll have 3, count em' ONE, TWO, THREE, Jackie Brown built guns. Man will that be sweet. :thumbsup:

 

[TN.Frank]

Shame on you T.N. Frank, you start an argument then try to make excuses. :bull: You only make your self look foolish. Mr. Brown, you may want to see how this started as an unprovoked attack on Mike's work:

Va.Manuf.06, I said, and I quote:
"You can get about the same style gun from Jackie Brown for under $1k. Yes, I really am HOOKED on my Jackie Brown Fowlers, I think they're that good."
How was that an "attack" on the Mike Brooks built gun. I didn't say anything negitive about it, just that for less money you can get a similar(smoothbore, flintlock, 42" barrel, quality built) gun for around $1K. I don't see any attack there, just pointing out that there are OTHER builders that make quality smoothbores out there in muzzleloading land. Geez, some of ya'll have really thin skin if you think THAT was an attack on Mike Brooks or the guns that he builds.
:shocked2:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Frank, even with long distance pictures I could tear those guns apart if I wished, but I don't wish to, there's no point to it. What I'd really like is for you to drop this " Jacky Brown is the greatest gunmaker in the whole world" stuff so we could all move on. There is no need to pursue this farther, you're just never going to get it. :shake:

 

[TN.Frank]

"There is no need to pursue this farther, you're just never going to get it."

Actually, I've got TWO and I'm working on my THIRD. For me a gun is a TOOL and J.B. makes Tools that I can afford. If I want ART I'll just hang the mounted heads of the deer that my Jackie Browns bring down on my wall. :grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

"There is no need to pursue this farther, you're just never going to get it."

Actually, I've got TWO and I'm working on my THIRD. For me a gun is a TOOL and J.B. makes Tools that I can afford. If I want ART I'll just hang the mounted heads of the deer that my Jackie Browns bring down on my wall. :grin:

Oh good grief, somebody just shoot me and get this over with...... :youcrazy: :yakyak:

 

[Rebel]

I think everyone needs to step back, take a DEEP breath, and start over. Look we all know where everyone else stands on this, so why not let it DROP. Pleeeeeez.