Any thoughts on the Indian made P1853 Enfields?

[thatoneguy82]

What is the consensus on the Indian made 1853 Enfield, I see lots of CW reenactors poo poo them as being unsafe but can't find any documentary evidence as to failures. I know it is stocked in teak rather than walnut and that they are smooth bore, but at nearly half the price of a Pedersoli and as something that will be little more than an occasional shooter and noise maker it seems like the price is right. I did see a write up done on this forum that found it a good servicable rifle until locating a defect with the nipple threads, but only after having fired it without incident.

So armed with that knowledge is there anyone else with some experience handling these, any reccomendations as to how to improve them or simply steer clear at all costs?

 

[satx78247]

I'm FAR from an expert on these "smoothie" versions of Enfield 1853s BUT the pair that I saw at the big Dallas show last year looked like that they were stocked in rosewood of some sort (instead of teak) & one hunter that was there said that they "are a little crude when compared to other Enfield replicas" but that the firearms made a "perfectly adequate" shotgun for hunting small game.

yours, satx

 

[nwtradegun]

one word :JUNK:

 

[rickystl]

Hi KH. You can often find a used Italian made Enfield for little more than a new Indian made one. Once a week check this Forum's Classified Section, Gunbroker, Track of the Wolf, etc. I've seen them advertised from time to time. You will be much happier. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I purchased 2 of the Indian made tower pistols from Veteran Arms. The quality, fit etc was as good or better than the cheap Spanish stuff imported over the years. The wall thickness at the breach was as thick as found on some Tc guns. There are some test done to comply with the Indian Office of Firearms, not quite the same as proof testing in most European countries. Then again one American company sold barrels breeched with helicoils, Another us company sold 15/16 shotgun barrels in 12 ga, which makes for very thin walls. A Spanish company is accused of setting proof standards so low a blow gun would pass. By those examples us guns are junk.
Navy arms sold double barrel shotguns made in India 30 years ago. Guess Navy Arms stuff is junk too

 

[Zonie]

India may have proof test requirements but the guns they are exporting don't need to meet them.

In fact, it is illegal for a Indian company to export working firearms at all.

This is why the Indian made guns are exported without a touch hole or a connecting passage from the nipple to the barrels breech.
It is also why they aren't proof tested.

If some company is selling working Indian made guns, that company has imported the gun and reworked it to make it shootable.

I'm not saying they are good or bad but people buying them should know what they are getting into.

 

[Alden]

Which is why I disdain the selling companies who are offering their wares and basically hiding the fact that they are India-made -- especially on auction sites. They are clearly hoping the unwashed masses, or should I say Untouchables, will accidently buy their products. Hey, cash is king and money is money, so, what the hell -- nobody here was really buying them anyway so there's no peer pressure to do the right thing.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Illegal to export a working firearm?

Do you have authority or a citation for that? The Indian Government doesn't care if the exported guns work or not. They are taxed less by US customs if IMPORTED to the US as non-working guns.

I find it interesting that all guns must be proofed to be possessed in Germany. The US has no proof requirements at all. Does that mean US made guns are junk? I can verify that some US guns are indeed junk. I have handled lawsuits over Montana made guns that blew up with factory ammo on the first shot. injuries that could have been avoided with proof requirements. An injury that could have been avoided had the manufacturer test fired each gun. What fool thought an auto slide could safely be made from die cast pot metal. Made in America JUNK.

The truth is that India has some very restrictive gun laws, but private ownership of firearms is still permitted. Firearms are regulated by caliber, with most caliber rifles being illegal. But smoothbore muzzle loaders may be made and owned by private citizens. I actually skimmed through their firearms law a year or two ago.

 

[Zonie]

There are other sites giving the same information but to quote some Wikipedia information:

"The Arms Act of 1959 and the Arms Rules 1962 of India prohibits the sale, manufacture, possession, acquisition, import, export and transport of firearms and ammunition unless under a license and is a stringent process.
The Indian Government has monopoly over production and sale of firearms, however, Breech Loading Smooth Bore shotguns are exception to this rule, some manufacturers have been allowed to produce certain number of these. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#India

Here's more on the 1959 Indian laws
http://gunaccessory.com/laws/arms_act.htm

And, the 1962 laws
http://gunaccessory.com/laws/arms_rules.htm

Although they speak of a export license it is incredibly difficult to get. It seems the British taught them how to set up bureaucracies and they've spent years making them more complex.

It is so much simpler to just make the gun in a form that doesn't work. That gets around a host of problems.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The 1962 law specifically permits exports so the wiki statement that exports are prohibited is false and misleading on its face.
The problem exporting to the us, is that the exporter must show a license to import from the country of destination. If you ever examined the Indian made guns sold by Navy Arms you would find makers name serial number date of manufacture and proof mark.

 

[nwtradegun]

navy arms lists no guns made in india.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Perhaps not now. The ones I know of were double barrel shotguns sold back in the 1970 ' s and 1980's.

 

[Wes/Tex]

There were several guns some years ago as mentioned. One was an Enfield cavalry carbine with hinged ramrod. I know they're safe cause I accidentally poured way too much powder in by letting myself get side-track while loading. Big BOOM and I did a pirouette like Baryshnikov but the little carbine wasn't phased by my stupidity! :wink: :haha:

 

[jbridgs]

A friend of mine has a business importing Indian muskets and smoothbore replicas. He buys them from the company sans-touchhole as it's a fair bit of trouble for the people in the particular manufacturing shops to legally possess firearms.

When they reach Australia, they are brought in and registered as firearms and go to a gunsmith where they are inspected and proofed.


The finish is not perfect; you'll often have to tweak them or stain the wood, as it's generally a rosewood of some type.

If you want to get one, I suggest get one from a local dealer with a good reputation and ensure it's been checked over by a good gunsmith who is familiar with BP.

 

[thatoneguy82]

Thanks for the insights and info all, the one I'm getting has been fired but I intend to prove it properly all the same, and if it passes it will be changing stocks and loosing sights to turn into a late HBC trade gun

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The 1962 law specifically permits exports so the wiki statement that exports are prohibited is false and misleading on its face.
The problem exporting to the us, is that the exporter must show a license to import from the country of destination. If you ever examined the Indian made guns sold by Navy Arms you would find makers name serial number date of manufacture and proof mark.

zimmerstutzen, loo at it this way, Indian manufacturers, who have the permits to do so - as Zonie said, a long and involved process - do produce and can export working firearms if they can find a market. By law, all Indian produced, legitimate and functional firearms must pass proof at the Indian government's proof house. The proof house follows the procedures of those in England. As recommended, please read the Indian Arms Act 1959 at:
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/act/chapter_1_2.html

and Indian Arms Rules 1962 at:
http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/rules/rule_53_56.html

and you will see that what Zonie says is correct. All Indian manufactured muzzleloading firearms exported are non functioning firearms. If they are sold as functioning arms in the US or anywhere else, they have been made so by the importers or their contractors.

If you are wondering why they export them as non-functioning arms, it all has to do with the cost the importers want to pay. The importer does not have to pay for the extra work or the proofing done by the Indian proof house. I would imagine that the paperwork for the import of decorators is also less involved than that for a firearm, even a muzzleloader.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Thought I would add this pic, it is an image of an Indian made Brown Bess that underwent proof at the Birmingham Proof house in Britain - it didn't pass.

This was the standard British government proof load and a well made gun would have passed.

 

[starlight]

Thought I would add this pic, it is an image of an Indian made Brown Bess that underwent proof at the Birmingham Proof house in Britain - it didn't pass.

This was the standard British government proof load and a well made gun would have passed.

That would probably have stung a bit. :shocked2:

 

[F.G. Ford]

Well, the breech plug held!! That was nice.
Any idea what the proof load was?

Now as to the question regarding the viability of a India gun.
You buy the gun today for yourself, with good luck it does not blow up, because you have a little knowledge of BP guns.
But now a few years/months down the road one of your family or friends use the gun and something bad happens.
Do you want to be part of that? NOT ME!
Fred

 

[Billnpatti]

In my humble opinion, they are suitable just for looks and shooting blanks. Personally, I would never shoot any kind of projectile from one. They will likely pass muster at most, if not all, reenacting events. There are people who are far more adventureous than me who say that they are fine shooting guns. So they say....... But not me. :shake: If you want it just for marching around and shooting blanks, it's probably okay but if you want a gun that you can shoot projectiles from, I'd advise buying something considerably better made. Pedersoli comes to mind.