Are cap rakes really necessary or a solution in search of any real problem ?

[M. De Land]

I've been chewing on this for some time and have not yet seen any real need of the modification if the revolver in question is adjusted properly to nipple height and a clean up of the hammer face and the slot for the cylinder safe pins is accomplished.
I think the action shield blocking of the hammer mortise makes more sense than a rake which only prevents cap sucking at hammer draw back. The caps will still occasionally fall off in rotation and periodically get jammed up between the shield and nipple well.
The hammer mortise shield on the other had keeps the spent caps out of the lock works where the real jams occur and can tie up the action until a tear down is conducted.
I still don't like cutting a slot into the lower hammer arm impact pressure face to attach a shield though and am pursuing an alternative means of purchase.

 

[45D]

I've been chewing on this for some time and have not yet seen any real need of the modification if the revolver in question is adjusted properly to nipple height and a clean up of the hammer face and the slot for the cylinder safe pins is accomplished.
I think the action shield blocking of the hammer mortise makes more sense than a rake which only prevents cap sucking at hammer draw back. The caps will still occasionally fall of in rotation and periodically get jammed up between the shield and nipple well.
The hammer mortise shield on the other had keeps the spent caps out of the lock works where the real jams occur and can tie up the action until a tear down is conducted.
I still don't like cutting a slot into the lower hammer arm impact pressure face to attach a shield though and am pursuing an alternative means of purchase.

No, you're about 25 yrs late!! Lol !!
They've been around at least since Cass started so . . . live and learn . . . Cap rakes / cap posts are an obstruction to keep modern cap hulls from falling into the action of today's reproductions. If you want the same situation that our forefathers had, you need too have the same exact caps , blah blah blah, that they had . . .
We don't. So, to make Cass a "thing" competition wise, it is a timed event which means in a nutshell, the fastest person wins. Thanks to cowboy shooters, we still have new reproductions to acquire!!! So, making them run reliably is a must!!!
Enter the new era of cap guns . . . if you don't like it, then fine. If you want to run fast or reliably with the offerings of today, you need to satisfy the problems of the day!! It is amazing that folks can't understand that "things aren't the same" today as they were. At least you have a "reasonable facsimile" of what our forefathers had so "pick your poison"!!! Either run like they did or "do the modern thing"!!!

The slot cut into the hammer for the action shield hasn't had one failure in over 5 yrs ( which equals 100's of competition guns) so, I don't know how much more you need but my "warranty" is lifetime so . . . whatever.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

No, you're about 25 yrs late!! Lol !!
They've been around at least since Cass started so . . . live and learn . . . Cap rakes / cap posts are an obstruction to keep modern cap hulls from falling into the action of today's reproductions. If you want the same situation that our forefathers had, you need too have the same exact caps , blah blah blah, that they had . . .
We don't. So, to make Cass a "thing" competition wise, it is a timed event which means in a nutshell, the fastest person wins. Thanks to cowboy shooters, we still have new reproductions to acquire!!! So, making them run reliably is a must!!!
Enter the new era of cap guns . . . if you don't like it, then fine. If you want to run fast or reliably with the offerings of today, you need to satisfy the problems of the day!! It is amazing that folks can't understand that "things aren't the same" today as they were. At least you have a "reasonable facsimile" of what our forefathers had so "pick your poison"!!! Either run like they did or "do the modern thing"!!!

The slot cut into the hammer for the action shield hasn't had one failure in over 5 yrs ( which equals 100's of competition guns) so, I don't know how much more you need but my "warranty" is lifetime so . . . whatever.

Mike

Have you actually tested original period caps in modern reproduction guns or is this a theory passed about ?
Note the post premise has a question mark at it's end not a period or exclamation mark. Diverse opinion and discussion requested.

 

[45D]

Have you actually tested original period caps in modern reproduction guns or is this a theory passed about ?
Note the post premise has a question mark at it's end not a period or exclamation mark. Diverse opinion and discussion requested.

No sir, but if you have a stash of them, please let us know how they fair!! Not being flippant but really?
I deal with what we have available today.

As I said, the cap post works as intended and the shield is an "insurance policy" in case it doesn't. So, with many Cass champion's that have used my services, I would say the two are a success !!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

No sir, but if you have a stash of them, please let us know how they fair!! Not being flippant but really?
I deal with what we have available today.

As I said, the cap post works as intended and the shield is an "insurance policy" in case it doesn't. So, with many Cass champion's that have used my services, I would say the two are a success !!

Mike

Thank you for an honest answer! I too, often believe what some one I have held in authority has told me and occasionally find out it does not bear up under scrutiny. Lead slug, abrasive hand lapping of rough barrels to restore accuracy is a case in point.
The main thing is you and the customers like the mod and it appears to have a function for competitive use.
My guess is the shield though is the real jewel in the crown.
I'd think the current caps are most likely light years ahead of period caps in construction consistency,reliability and with non-corrosive fulmate but only comparative testing of a sealed original cap source would prove anything as far as function is concerned.

 

[45D]

Thank you for an honest answer! I too, often believe what some one I have held in authority has told me and occasionally find out it does not bear up under scrutiny. Lead slug, abrasive hand lapping of rough barrels to restore accuracy is a case in point.
The main thing is you and the customers like the mod and it appears to have a function for competitive use.
My guess is the shield though is the real jewel in the crown.
I'd think the current caps are most likely light years ahead of period caps in construction consistency,reliability and with non-corrosive fulmate but only comparative testing of a sealed original cap source would prove anything as far as function is concerned.

I appreciate that!
The "cap posts" I've been doing since I started but the "shield" I developed later on ( April of 2018. Not saying I invented it, there's not much of anything somebody hasn't already done on these things). The first pair for a customer was a pair of Dragoons I believe (in Texas) and he sent me a text the following weekend and said it worked exactly as described. He had a cap hull fall back but instead of going IN the action it stayed on the shield. He turned the revolver upside down and the hull fell out!! He was able to continue the stage with a good time and no disqualification.
I believe the combination of both makes great sense for cap guns. I install shields on cartridge guns as well ( minus the "hook"). It's just a nice "finishing touch" if you will . . . no real need to see the grease in the action . . .

Mike

 

[LongWalker]

Have you actually tested original period caps in modern reproduction guns or is this a theory passed about ?

I have, indirectly. I grew up occasionally shooting originals, loaded with components my family had had stashed since the 1870s. I inherited several boxes of caps, and tucked these away for a rainy day.

Around 2007 I was shooting in some serious matches, using modern components and repro pistols. I noted I had problems with caps tying up the revolvers (something I'd seldom seen with originals and old components). I also thought the ballistics were a bit inconsistent. I set up a test to compare the old and new components, in original and repro arms. Guns were fired from a Ransom Rest; each round was chronographed. Guns tested were original Colt's 1851 Navy and 1860 Army, and repro 1851 Navy and 1860 Army from Uberti.

In the course of testing, I shot up ~500 original caps from sealed tins of Eley's caps marked "250 metal lined caps made exclusively for Colt's PT Belt and Pocket Pistols". I compared these with modern caps from CCI, RWS, DGW, and Remington.

Out of ~500 shots with the Eleys, no caps fell off prior to shooting; four fired caps came off when the gun was cocked for the next shot, resulting in tie-ups that had to be cleared to continue. All happened with the same gun--the Uberti Navy--and while I always meant to test to see if it was the same chamber, I traded the gun before I got around to it. Of the modern caps, the RWS were the winner for reliability, with only a couple falling off during rotation, and IIRC, about 20 fired caps coming off when the hammer was cocked. The other brands resulted in more functional problems. No Eley caps failed to fire; the others all had a few misfires. For consistency in velocity, the modern DGW caps were #1, Eley was #2, and RWS was #3.

When the Eley caps were made, they were an important component of a weapon system that people relied on for their lives. The military here and in other countries bought millions of caps, tested them for consistency, and rejected any lot of caps that exceeded their standards (which were much higher than we accept today!). There is no reason to think today's caps--made in relatively small quantities, for folks playing games and plinking--would somehow be better. The only advantage to modern caps that I can see in that they are less-corrosive, but I'd gladly accept the need to clean more carefully in exchange for the reliability the caps were designed for.

But that isn't an option. Things weren't perfect "back then": there were several patents issued in the US for cap shields, with some even being tested by the military. Overseas, there were other approaches taken, e.g. different designs of the recoil shield, etc.

I don't recall seeing patents etc for a cap rake. None of the thousands of accounts of use of Colts pistols as a primary weapon that I have read, or my own experience, suggests they were necessary with the caps then in use. The thin-bodied caps we have now have changed things. I fit the nipples to snugly fit whatever caps I can get, and any revolver I shoot in matches will have a cap rake.

 

[M. De Land]

I have, indirectly. I grew up occasionally shooting originals, loaded with components my family had had stashed since the 1870s. I inherited several boxes of caps, and tucked these away for a rainy day.

Around 2007 I was shooting in some serious matches, using modern components and repro pistols. I noted I had problems with caps tying up the revolvers (something I'd seldom seen with originals and old components). I also thought the ballistics were a bit inconsistent. I set up a test to compare the old and new components, in original and repro arms. Guns were fired from a Ransom Rest; each round was chronographed. Guns tested were original Colt's 1851 Navy and 1860 Army, and repro 1851 Navy and 1860 Army from Uberti.

In the course of testing, I shot up ~500 original caps from sealed tins of Eley's caps marked "250 metal lined caps made exclusively for Colt's PT Belt and Pocket Pistols". I compared these with modern caps from CCI, RWS, DGW, and Remington.

Out of ~500 shots with the Eleys, no caps fell off prior to shooting; four fired caps came off when the gun was cocked for the next shot, resulting in tie-ups that had to be cleared to continue. All happened with the same gun--the Uberti Navy--and while I always meant to test to see if it was the same chamber, I traded the gun before I got around to it. Of the modern caps, the RWS were the winner for reliability, with only a couple falling off during rotation, and IIRC, about 20 fired caps coming off when the hammer was cocked. The other brands resulted in more functional problems. No Eley caps failed to fire; the others all had a few misfires. For consistency in velocity, the modern DGW caps were #1, Eley was #2, and RWS was #3.

When the Eley caps were made, they were an important component of a weapon system that people relied on for their lives. The military here and in other countries bought millions of caps, tested them for consistency, and rejected any lot of caps that exceeded their standards (which were much higher than we accept today!). There is no reason to think today's caps--made in relatively small quantities, for folks playing games and plinking--would somehow be better. The only advantage to modern caps that I can see in that they are less-corrosive, but I'd gladly accept the need to clean more carefully in exchange for the reliability the caps were designed for.

But that isn't an option. Things weren't perfect "back then": there were several patents issued in the US for cap shields, with some even being tested by the military. Overseas, there were other approaches taken, e.g. different designs of the recoil shield, etc.

I don't recall seeing patents etc for a cap rake. None of the thousands of accounts of use of Colts pistols as a primary weapon that I have read, or my own experience, suggests they were necessary with the caps then in use. The thin-bodied caps we have now have changed things. I fit the nipples to snugly fit whatever caps I can get, and any revolver I shoot in matches will have a cap rake.

Thanks for the report on actual test comparisons ! Good information based on facts !

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks for the report on actual test comparisons ! Good information based on facts !

I'll be looking for some mercuric period correct caps to conduct my own testing comparisons and see if my opinion squares with yours !

 

[smoothshooter]

I appreciate that!
The "cap posts" I've been doing since I started but the "shield" I developed later on ( April of 2018. Not saying I invented it, there's not much of anything somebody hasn't already done on these things). The first pair for a customer was a pair of Dragoons I believe (in Texas) and he sent me a text the following weekend and said it worked exactly as described. He had a cap hull fall back but instead of going IN the action it stayed on the shield. He turned the revolver upside down and the hull fell out!! He was able to continue the stage with a good time and no disqualification.
I believe the combination of both makes great sense for cap guns. I install shields on cartridge guns as well ( minus the "hook"). It's just a nice "finishing touch" if you will . . . no real need to see the grease in the action . . .

Mike

What is your turn-around time, Mike?
I have 2 or 3 Uberti’s I need to send to you.

 

[azmntman]

Get back to Work!

 

[springfield art]

Imagine in the heat & humidity of, say, July 1-3rd, 1863, the mess around caps & black powder at Gettysburg! Ugh!

 

[azmntman]

Nope. I don't even think about it in the shade drinking ice tea in Indiana in the summer. Our shade works. That's why I live here. Don't mind sweating if I'm working but NOT in the shade drinking iced tea, that just ain't right.

 

[CaptainVane]

I am kinda loath to say anything among the gunsmiths here. But i will tell my experience.
Over the winter i did some mild sanding/filing of the hammer face. Very slightly opened up the groove. Very Slightly. Rounded all sharp points on hammer face, groove. Also i replaced nipples with slixshot.
Went to range today, shot about 100 rounds. A variety of all caps made.
Not one cap jam. Not one cap fell into the action. They all rotated after firing to the right and fell out as Sam Colt intended.
I certainly don’t intend to infer that any gunny customization isnt need. But mine doesn’t. Maybe I got a good one.
We wont discuss my .31 who is going to stand in a corner and get no dinner for being very bad today.

 

[45D]

I am kinda loath to say anything among the gunsmiths here. But i will tell my experience.
Over the winter i did some mild sanding/filing of the hammer face. Very slightly opened up the groove. Very Slightly. Rounded all sharp points on hammer face, groove. Also i replaced nipples with slixshot.
Went to range today, shot about 100 rounds. A variety of all caps made.
Not one cap jam. Not one cap fell into the action. They all rotated after firing to the right and fell out as Sam Colt intended.
I certainly don’t intend to infer that any gunny customization isnt need. But mine doesn’t. Maybe I got a good one.
We wont discuss my .31 who is going to stand in a corner and get no dinner for being very bad today.

CV, I think that's great that you can take care of cap problems to suite your needs!! Of course if you're shooting 5 shots in say 2 -2 1/2 secs. you might have a different outcome. I understand everybody views the world from their particular perspective so everybody has specific needs. As far as my customers (across the board), most aren't cowboy shooters but about 1/3 are, so even those that aren't into cowboy shooting like the ability for their revolvers to run as IF they were competition guns. So, whether they need it or not , they have the equipment to do so. Kinda like the high end car owner may not "need" the abilities the car has but the value / satisfaction is knowing it CAN. Timex's may tell time as well as a Rolex but some prefer a Rolex.

There's 8 shots in about 7 seconds and he's just having fun!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

CV, I think that's great that you can take care of cap problems to suite your needs!! Of course if you're shooting 5 shots in say 2 -2 1/2 secs. you might have a different outcome. I understand everybody views the world from their particular perspective so everybody has specific needs. As far as my customers (across the board), most aren't cowboy shooters but about 1/3 are, so even those that aren't into cowboy shooting like the ability for their revolvers to run as IF they were competition guns. So, whether they need it or not , they have the equipment to do so. Kinda like the high end car owner may not "need" the abilities the car has but the value / satisfaction is knowing it CAN. Timex's may tell time as well as a Rolex but some prefer a Rolex.

View attachment 311491

There's 8 shots in about 7 seconds and he's just having fun!!

Mike

I appreciate that!
The "cap posts" I've been doing since I started but the "shield" I developed later on ( April of 2018. Not saying I invented it, there's not much of anything somebody hasn't already done on these things). The first pair for a customer was a pair of Dragoons I believe (in Texas) and he sent me a text the following weekend and said it worked exactly as described. He had a cap hull fall back but instead of going IN the action it stayed on the shield. He turned the revolver upside down and the hull fell out!! He was able to continue the stage with a good time and no disqualification.
I believe the combination of both makes great sense for cap guns. I install shields on cartridge guns as well ( minus the "hook"). It's just a nice "finishing touch" if you will . . . no real need to see the grease in the action . . .

Mike

I'm going to go with a shield on the Walker but haven't as yet warmed up to the need for a rake ! I've got and idea I want to try out as a different means of shield purchase to the lower hammer arm face not liking the cross cut method. If it pans out I'll share it .

 

[45D]

As far as the above video shows, can you run your cap guns run like that? That may be an answer to the question of this thread !!

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

CV, I think that's great that you can take care of cap problems to suite your needs!! Of course if you're shooting 5 shots in say 2 -2 1/2 secs. you might have a different outcome. I understand everybody views the world from their particular perspective so everybody has specific needs. As far as my customers (across the board), most aren't cowboy shooters but about 1/3 are, so even those that aren't into cowboy shooting like the ability for their revolvers to run as IF they were competition guns. So, whether they need it or not , they have the equipment to do so. Kinda like the high end car owner may not "need" the abilities the car has but the value / satisfaction is knowing it CAN. Timex's may tell time as well as a Rolex but some prefer a Rolex.

View attachment 311491

There's 8 shots in about 7 seconds and he's just having fun!!

Mike

gosh dangggg. i love that. thank you sir for pistung this. geee

 

[M. De Land]

gosh dangggg. i love that. thank you sir for pistung this. geee

Wounder if he was shooting at anything................ and hitting it if he was?

 

[CaptainKirk]

I am privy to owning one of Mike's guns with both the cap rake and action shield, as well as a few with just the rake.
I've had nary a smidge of trouble with any of them.
I'm sold.