Ball Triggers on European Guns?

[Tacksman45]

Does anyone know of any instances of European made guns having ball type triggers other than Scottish steel stocked pistols, and early Scottish longarms? If so, when and where, and on what types of weapons might they have been used? I would especially like to know if anyone knows of any Dutch "club butt" type guns with ball triggers, with or without a triggerguard.

Thanks!

 

[tenngun]

The only ones I can think of were Indian/ Afghan guns of the eighteenth century. In my minds eye I’m thinking of Russian Georgian or Turkish guns, but it’s been along time since I saw those old photoes and since the shape was similar to Afghan guns I might just be running them together in my head.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Buckskinner.

Other than Scottish guns, I can't recall ever seeing any other guns of European origin using the ball trigger (and no guard) configuration. Of course, this style was popular throughout various areas of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey, Persia, Caucasus, and areas of the Balkans come to mind.
Which might beg the question: Was the ball trigger style developed in Europe (Scotland) or the Middle East ? I would guess the former.
Now that I think about it, I know who to ask this question. LOL I'll get back to you.
Were you looking to build something ?

Rick

 

[Rifleman1776]

What is a 'ball trigger'?

 

[Sidney Smith]

Second that question. I've never heard of a ball trigger.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Third that question, I've never heard of a ball trigger.

 

[tenngun]

Look up a photo of Scottish pistols. Often had no trigger guard and below where the finger went there was a small globe

 

[rickystl]

Here's an example..........

 

[dd832]

Here's an example: James Gray of Dundee c. 1620. Just in case you want to make your own copy of this pistol (HA!) the barrel is 11.8" and is 17.3" overall length.

You can see more examples at - http://www.johnkirkcollection.com/ Click on the word 'Menu' at the top left of the opening page. Mike (look at that I got beat to the punch again by seconds!)

 

[Rudyard]

Turkish guns mostly had ball triggers ,much of Turkish lands where in Europe..So would count .Persian & southern Russian Balkan Kahnates as well as Algerian guns also had the ball triggers .But not strictly European . The Miguelet lock variants with patilla locks have a deep notch where the patilla or axe like 'foot' is deeply engaged at half bent so needs no guard. The scear spring comes through the plate to retain the patilla blade at full bent. On fireing, both protrusions are withdrawn cleanly . These are really powerfull locks & compact , good locks though they may seem ugly to our tastes I'me very partial to such pieces . Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I am aware of very few examples of European guns with unprotected "ball triggers". For those unfamiliar with the Scottish version, the trigger was several parts. At it fullest development in the 18th century, the trigger ended in a rounded or squared stud over which a silver ball, often made of 2 hemispheres soldered together, was placed and the end of the stud peened over. Earlier Scottish pistols had one piece iron triggers with a lobe at the base. I am aware of a number of mid to late 17th century English pistols with ball or lobed triggers and no guards. Most were screw barrel or turn-off pistols. There are three surviving 16th century English wheellock and snaphaunce pistols with ball triggers but all had an effective safety latch on the trigger, which later pistols discarded. There are a few early European wheellocks with simple unprotected triggers but not necessarily with ball or lobe ends. I think most gunmakers everywhere realized it was a bad idea not to have a trigger guard. The Scots were just stubborn and had to be different for longer.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Dave is correct re Scotts .Though they where exempted . I used stag horn to make any ball triggers the unseen blade hangs on a pin and pushed backwards to the scear arm . The Snaphance used in Europe /Scots has provision to carry the cock at rest while the pan is covered .But when cocked the link will strike the pan cover arm .,Something I've not found on North African examples .So no need of half cock or safety till its cocked for expected action .hence no need of a trigger guard .In wet climes I shove a quill into the vent of a loaded rifle the cock at rest until you expect a shot when apon you ensure the pan is dry fresh prime and carry under your arm pits sort of .which might be more common practice than some might think .If you out for days at a time (normal in NZ) prime will draw moisture so make the charge questionabley dry but the quill ensures the charge its self should be still good.. .I have examined Wheellocks that had the pan cover long since removed which suggests this was not uncommon.. The little wires under the check piece are for quills is my contention .I drill three holes in the belly of the stocks for feather quills same idea . . Regards Rudyard

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks. Now I know but think I'll stick with a guard.
Rudyard's last post has several very interesting aspects.

 

[rickystl]

Here's a couple of Eastern examples with miquelet locks and ball triggers. One an Ottoman Turk rifle and a Caucasian rifle. The ball triggers with no guards similar. I've read where these were also referred to as button triggers. Possibly due to the resemblance to early buttons used on clothing and accessories.
One curiosity - at least in the early to mid 19th Century - the Ottoman Turks seemed to prefer their long guns with miquelet locks and ball triggers, but their pistols with traditional French style flintlocks and triggers/guards.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Nice examples the upper piece seems to be Walnut & its butt end Maple/Sycomore. The lock has Persian features looks great to me . To us used to our stock shapes they may seem awkward but they handle fine . I've hunted with one I' got up' of old parts about the only failing is they never seem to put a tool box in them Ile try post pics.
.I find such pieces fascinateing but most non European arms get the Wall hanger /décor treatment .But then cheek stock wheellocks get the same confussed reaction but if you hunt with one a few days , and I went ten days one time they seem perfectly normal .Come to that so is the snap Matchlock once you except its difference . Rudyard

 

[Tacksman45]

Here's an example: James Gray of Dundee c. 1620. Just in case you want to make your own copy of this pistol (HA!) the barrel is 11.8" and is 17.3" overall length.View attachment 7567
You can see more examples at - http://www.johnkirkcollection.com/ Click on the word 'Menu' at the top left of the opening page. Mike (look at that I got beat to the punch again by seconds!)

If only I could make one! That is one gorgeous piece of work!

 

[Tacksman45]

Turkish guns mostly had ball triggers ,much of Turkish lands where in Europe..So would count .Persian & southern Russian Balkan Kahnates as well as Algerian guns also had the ball triggers .But not strictly European . The Miguelet lock variants with patilla locks have a deep notch where the patilla or axe like 'foot' is deeply engaged at half bent so needs no guard. The scear spring comes through the plate to retain the patilla blade at full bent. On fireing, both protrusions are withdrawn cleanly . These are really powerfull locks & compact , good locks though they may seem ugly to our tastes I'me very partial to such pieces . Rudyard

Rudyard,

Thanks as always for your input on my questions! I have not studied Miguelet lock weapons before, but I have always liked the profile of weapon like you are describing!

 

[Tacksman45]

Hi,
I am aware of very few examples of European guns with unprotected "ball triggers". For those unfamiliar with the Scottish version, the trigger was several parts. At it fullest development in the 18th century, the trigger ended in a rounded or squared stud over which a silver ball, often made of 2 hemispheres soldered together, was placed and the end of the stud peened over. Earlier Scottish pistols had one piece iron triggers with a lobe at the base. I am aware of a number of mid to late 17th century English pistols with ball or lobed triggers and no guards. Most were screw barrel or turn-off pistols. There are three surviving 16th century English wheellock and snaphaunce pistols with ball triggers but all had an effective safety latch on the trigger, which later pistols discarded. There are a few early European wheellocks with simple unprotected triggers but not necessarily with ball or lobe ends. I think most gunmakers everywhere realized it was a bad idea not to have a trigger guard. The Scots were just stubborn and had to be different for longer.

dave

Dave,

Thanks as always for taking the time to give your input on my questions. Thanks for the info on the Scottish pistol trigger! The turn off pistols you were discussing were flintlock correct? I completely agree about the Scottish being reluctant to change! It is interesting though that the famous Breadalbane gun does have a triggerguard, so Laird Campbell may have specifically asked for one when he had it built.

 

[Tacksman45]

Here's a couple of Eastern examples with miquelet locks and ball triggers. One an Ottoman Turk rifle and a Caucasian rifle. The ball triggers with no guards similar. I've read where these were also referred to as button triggers. Possibly due to the resemblance to early buttons used on clothing and accessories.
One curiosity - at least in the early to mid 19th Century - the Ottoman Turks seemed to prefer their long guns with miquelet locks and ball triggers, but their pistols with traditional French style flintlocks and triggers/guards.

RickView attachment 7605 View attachment 7606 View attachment 7607 View attachment 7608

Rick,

Thanks a always for your taking your time to answer my questions! How much did Ottoman Pistols resemble French pistols? Could an iron or brass mounted French 1730's horse or navy pistol pass for an Ottoman pistol of the same period? To answer your question, as you know, I am thinking about having a Scottish Heron butt made, but Mr. Osborne made a good point on my thread I posted on the "Pre-Flintlock" section, that the accounts of enormous guns with "butts turned up like herons" could have been referring to Dutch club-butt trade guns, so I was exploring this as a possible project, and was wondering if I could find an account of a Dutch trade gun, or any flintlock longarm in Europe from roughly the same period with a ball trigger similar to the Scottish snaphaunce longarms.

Thanks again!

 

[Rudyard]

Whilst the Dutch did go for the full belied stocks I don't think ball triggers where normal . If any such pieces were sold to the Scots by the Dutch I know of non surviving nor any reference of them . But the Museum in Jakarta former Batavia dose have some early Dutch pieces . I don't recall any ball triggers but will look in my diaries to see as I did often take notes in viewing collections .Not all Scotts longarms had fluted stocks or ball triggers and some early of the few survivors had guards . Pukka put you onto me but I didn't hear from you . .Brer Glenn seems to be well up on these pieces as are others on these posts .Ime guessing you seek one for re enactments ?. but while some might have been pressed into service in Jacobite times they would be old stuff as these are essensially late 16t & much of 17th C but while ever a gun functioned it would get used . If you met a fellow hunter using a Krag ,,O3 Springfield or even a Trapdoor you would'nt consider him weird and he wouldn't be any lesser kitted out than the latest offerings ..So the same would be true of earlier ages . Muzzle loading wasn't reborn it never died .
Regards Rudyard