Barrel Ringing

[user 34300]

The Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual by Sam Fadala, year MCMXCI (1980-ish) Chapter 5 pages 53 thru 61 entitled "Black Powder Pressures" He bulged and blew up a bunch of barrels with short started loads. Unless Sam Fadala was a pathological liar there is something to it.

 

[Cattman]

one time a plane went over my property when i was loading a new gun i just built. i was very courious as to what that plane was up to. i put the 400 grain starter started bullet at 28 inches from the breech on a 34 inch barrel. fired the gun and it squeeked but hit the target. ringed it good at 28 inches, the power was 100 grains o pyrodex. cut the barrel off at 26 inches. remachined the muzzle to fit the started. shot just as accurate with the same load and got six deer with it to 125 yards. sold it to someone who is using even more that i did. the barrel was rung. now the maker of the barrel said i could keep shooting but it was dangerous to do so. he said the ring would get deeper and deeper and finally give out. so i cut it off and it was still a good rifle carbine.

 

[Howard Pippin]

I was going to mention this but you beat me to it.

For those who haven't read about the Bevel Brothers experiment, they tried everything they could think of to get the barrel to bulge. They tried this with several barrels.
As long as they loaded only one ball, none of their powder charges did any damage to the barrel at all. They loaded the ball just a few inches above the black powder charge and they loaded the ball just a few inches below the face of the muzzle over small BP charges and over huge BP charged. Nothing bad happened as long as they were loading only one ball.

It was only when they rammed a ball down on top of the powder load like one does when they correctly load a barrel and then rammed another ball, part way down the barrel that they managed to damage the barrel. When they loaded the barrel with the two balls spaced apart, the barrel was bulged where the upper ball was located. As memory serves me, the end of the smoothbore barrel totally blew apart where the upper ball was located.

I bought a new percussion traditions rifle this spring and decided to use 777 powder if I could make it work satisfactory. Age does have its limitations, for three times now I have failed to seat the ball on the powder charge. It's a 50 caliber and I'm using 45 grains 777 triple F. The first two times, the rifle shot kind of a delayed action almost like a badly tuned Flintlock as a bang and then another bang, and no hit on the target, and both reports were fairly soft. The last time I did it, the powder must have been further away from the primer, and all that shot was the primer. Now I was positive that I hid put in powder, so I checked and sure enough the ball was only down about 6 inches. I seated it on the powder, put on a primer and it shot successfully. Now no means do I recommend doing it, and I finally realized that age has its limitations, but apparently it's a tough gun because nothing has happened so far. I think Zomie's article is dead on.
Squint

 

[Archer 756]

Lets look at a 45/70 that was loaded with a shell that did not have a wad to take up the air space, So ringing a barrel dose happen All the other shells where taken head out and no wad in any. Oh this gun has shot over1k of shoots before someone did not reload proper ammo.

 

[Cattman]

so how did i ring my modern stainless steel barrel. must have been a act of God. dont get this post at all. how about ringed chambers in black powder cartridge rifles when the shells are not loaded right. guess a act of God. get real on this one. stop quoting articles and get in the real world. ring a barrel is real. why does the oregon rifle barrel company make leaded steel muzzleloader barrels. so they bulge and dont blow out from a improper load talk to them they know know about it. i get a kick out of article quoters who have no real experience. some are arm chair shooters but some are not. enough with this one and play with you gun and see what happens. i rung a barrel and i know.

 

[Robert McPhee]

As a shooter of a model 1859 Sharps percussion rifle, having the breech partly filled with black powder bothered me, but it seems to cause no problem. I've read that these rifles were designed to accommodate this partial load, but it is not apparent to me that this rifle is built any beefier than my other muzzle loaders. This leads me to believe that takes additional conditions than just a non compacted load to cause damage.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

As a shooter of a model 1859 Sharps percussion rifle, having the breech partly filled with black powder bothered me, but it seems to cause no problem. I've read that these rifles were designed to accommodate this partial load, but it is not apparent to me that this rifle is built any beefier than my other muzzle loaders. This leads me to believe that takes additional conditions than just a non compacted load to cause damage.

???

With an 1859 Sharps, the paper cartridge is pushed all the way into the chamber and then the rear of the cartridge is sheared off when closing the breach. You should NOT have a partially empty powder chamber in that rifle, the bullet must be totally seated on the powder.

 

[mooman76]

If I remember correctly some have stated you can get a ringed barrel from S.E.E. Secondary Explosive event if memory serves. That where a slower burning powder ignites and pushed the bullet down the barrel before the rest of the powder ignites part way down the barrel causing a ring. Generally this happens on low powder charges of slow burning rifle powders. It is difficult to make happen on purpose so allot of this is theory but it does happen.

 

[dlidster]

, , , Age does have its limitations . . . I think Zonie's article is dead on . . .

I suffer from this same handicap -- I'm 77.

Just yesterday I was shooting steel plates behind my house. I was alone and had no distractions, thus no excuses. I always shoot five-shot groups. At 50 yards I already had three just about touching. When I touched off the fourth my TC Hawken made a loud POP instead of a crack, the ball hit the ground about 20-25 yards out and bounced and rolled away as though I had thrown it.

I had short-started the PRB, but in a senior moment I hadn't seated it with a ramrod. Had I not been following this thread and not read Zonie's comment, I would have been heart sick. But, there was no bulge on the outside of the barrel; no loose spot inside. I loaded and fired two more rounds and they grouped with the three I had previously shot. I continued shooting for the rest of the afternoon. There was absolutely no damage to the rifle.

Now, I don't plan on making a habit of this, but I'm not going to be as concerned as I would have been before following this thread and reading Zonie's report. Is there anyone else here other than Howard Pippin and me who has actually had this experience? Or is all the other information based on hearsay?

 

[Britsmoothy]

I suffer from this same handicap -- I'm 77.

Just yesterday I was shooting steel plates behind my house. I was alone and had no distractions, thus no excuses. I always shoot five-shot groups. At 50 yards I already had three just about touching. When I touched off the fourth my TC Hawken made a loud POP instead of a crack, the ball hit the ground about 20-25 yards out and bounced and rolled away as though I had thrown it.

I had short-started the PRB, but in a senior moment I hadn't seated it with a ramrod. Had I not been following this thread and not read Zonie's comment, I would have been heart sick. But, there was no bulge on the outside of the barrel; no loose spot inside. I loaded and fired two more rounds and they grouped with the three I had previously shot. I continued shooting for the rest of the afternoon. There was absolutely no damage to the rifle.

Now, I don't plan on making a habit of this, but I'm not going to be as concerned as I would have been before following this thread and reading Zonie's report. Is there anyone else here other than Howard Pippin and me who has actually had this experience? Or is all the other information based on hearsay?

I've done it.
No damage.

 

[pmccoywss]

[QUOTEyear MCMXCI (1980-ish) ][/QUOTE]

MCMXCI is 1991.

 

[Robert McPhee]

???

With an 1859 Sharps, the paper cartridge is pushed all the way into the chamber and then the rear of the cartridge is sheared off when closing the breach. You should NOT have a partially empty powder chamber in that rifle, the bullet must be totally seated on the powder.

Yes, the paper cartridge goes in ball first and as the breech is closed, the back is sheared off. But, the breech block is not flat faced, it has a cavity in the face that leaves the powder loose, not compressed behind the ball when closed.

 

[hawkeye2]

Yes, the paper cartridge goes in ball first and as the breech is closed, the back is sheared off. But, the breech block is not flat faced, it has a cavity in the face that leaves the powder loose, not compressed behind the ball when closed.

Not only is there a cavity there the Sharps has a generous chamber. I have seen posts where it took 70+ grains to fill the chamber after seating the bullet. Not an experience you want to repeat often with a carbine. Most everyone I'm aware of shoots about 40 to 45 grains in that big chamber and the Sharps was designed to be fired with an air space. I actually had Charlie Hahn open the chamber of my Shilo to about 5/8" as his tubes weren't bursting in my gun giving troubles. When I got it back he told me his Sharps was set up the same way.

 

[Britsmoothy]

What makes me giggle is the sight of folks pounding a ball on the powder....even bouncing the rammer on the ball. Seen videos where upon the person grins at the camera with a cheesy grin while bouncing the rammer off the ball .
Why!

 

[Cattman]

that they learned from the movies. best way to ruin accuracy. i also saw something that made me cringe. in the clinic where i have been getting my chemo treatments their a a very well made bronze statue of a mountain many loading his flintlock rifle. very well done except for one thing. he is pouring powder directly into the barrel from his powder horn. good way to have your head or hand blown off. no way to measure it also. the person who did the statue was a good artist but knew nothing of muzzloading rifles and how to shoot them. makes me cringe every time i saw that thing.

 

[Archer 756]

Cattman, That's great to hear also was watching a program on the Pilgrims, it was very discussing to watch all the rifles where 1800 rifles and also note that no flints where installed or the frizzens where never closed.

 

[Flinty Scot]

I suffer from this same handicap -- I'm 77.

Just yesterday I was shooting steel plates behind my house. I was alone and had no distractions, thus no excuses. I always shoot five-shot groups. At 50 yards I already had three just about touching. When I touched off the fourth my TC Hawken made a loud POP instead of a crack, the ball hit the ground about 20-25 yards out and bounced and rolled away as though I had thrown it.

I had short-started the PRB, but in a senior moment I hadn't seated it with a ramrod. Had I not been following this thread and not read Zonie's comment, I would have been heart sick. But, there was no bulge on the outside of the barrel; no loose spot inside. I loaded and fired two more rounds and they grouped with the three I had previously shot. I continued shooting for the rest of the afternoon. There was absolutely no damage to the rifle.

Now, I don't plan on making a habit of this, but I'm not going to be as concerned as I would have been before following this thread and reading Zonie's report. Is there anyone else here other than Howard Pippin and me who has actually had this experience? Or is all the other information based on hearsay?

I think (hard to reconstruct) I did the same thing one of the last times out. Detonation didn't sound right and I could swear I heard the ball slap wood-like it was thrown. I was using a tipi'd pile of logs as backstop.
In a cold sweat as I felt along the barrel; swabbed; and reloaded. No sign of a bulge or change in restistance to either swab or prb. Fate was smiling that day.
Now I fear my aging memory/concentration even more. If I ruined this, my dream rifle... Got to knuckle down to ritual.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Now I fear my aging memory/concentration even more. If I ruined this, my dream rifle... Got to knuckle down to ritual.

My brother, I hear that loud and clear.
At the range I get distracted by curious onlookers, and by regulars that just want to say hello and chat.
Don't get me wrong, this is a part of the range experience that I really enjoy.
My propensity for distraction has led me to a rigid discipline and methodology that I attempt to adhere to.
All tools are on my left side on the bench.
So I load,
Powder - after which I place the powder measure on the right side of the table.
Ball and patch using a short starter - after which I place the short starter on the right side of the table
Push the ball down the barrel with range rod - after which I place the rod on the right side of the table.
Immediately after firing, I move measure, short starter and range rod back to the left side of the table.
Swab (if needed) and start over.
If I get interrupted or distracted in the loading process - I never get out of order or skip a step.
There are times that I get distracted in a conversation that lasts several minutes or longer.
However, it is extremely rare now that I misstep and screw up a loading (like dryballing or failing to ram the ball down.
That said - I did have an incident when I was first getting into black powder that I failed to run the ball down.
The result was a huge fireball out in front of the gun, a ball that went downrange but did not hit the target or berm.
Like the others here, I did a very close examination for potential damage , but found none.
My take on this? The ball is very close to the muzzle, and there is lots of expansion room in the empty barrel to absorb the expanding gas pressure that will pop the ball a couple of inches and out the end of the barrel. The pressure in the specific scenario don't get get to the point of damaging anything. If that same ball was a farther down the barrel but not in contact with the powder, I do know and have seen massive damage will be done.
Best way to prevent that - listen to Flinty Scot - and develop a RIDGID loading discipline to assure you don't get out of step.

 

[dlidster]

. . . a rigid discipline and methodology that I attempt to adhere to . . .

I, too, tend to be a creature of routines, but apparently mine wasn't quite good enough. I'm going to change my ways and adopt yours. Thanks.

 

[Grenadier1758]

At the bench, I follow this procedure. Empty, the rifle is leaning at the loading bench. I often use a measure with a cut off spout. When I pour the powder, I leave the measure in the muzzle. This tells me that powder is in the barrel. I get the ball and patch ready, then I remove the measure. When the ball and patch are loaded, I use the short starter to begin the ball loading. I leave the short starter in the barrel until I have the loading rod ready to use. With the ball at the breech I remove the loading rod to advance to the firing line to prime and shoot. I have those positive visual indications of what step I have taken.