Black Powder & Black Powder Only!?!

[Rafsob]

Went to the range yesterday with my Investarms Hawkens Carbine. I had this problem that drove me nuts. Every time I used a synthetic powder my gun would hang fire. A few times the cap went off only. But if I used black powder it shot perfectly, every time. Not only that, but when I used the BP it would nock out the bull paste on the target????

As to the synthetic powders I used, I used Pyrodex RS, American Pioneer, Goex Pinnacle. I would switch back and forth between powders and got the same effect every time.

Don't get me wrong, but I guess what they say about the accuracy of black powder is definitely true. When I used the BP it was more then I could hope for on accuracy. And I will use the BP (Goex)from now on.

Does anyone have any idea why this gun of mine is doing this? Is it a problem that can be fixed? One friend told me to get a musket nipple. Another told me to have the flash hole drill out to a larger size.

 

[Legionair]

I've used pyrodex and 777 in my C&B revolvers and it has lit off ok. Certainly Goex BP will ignite faster because it takes less temp and spark to start it. I haven't really compared the accuracy in a test type environment, so I would only guess that the slower burn of sythetics is lowering your velocity... throwing off your accuracy.

Just an opinion

Legion

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

If you're only going to use real BP, then apparently you don't have a problem worth fixing! Some times putting on a spitfire nipple is all that's required to solve the hang-fire problem. They take regular #11 caps too. Some guns just won't shoot correctly with the subs, and yours may be one of them! If your rifle has a hooked breach, sometimes rapping the side of the barrel to settle the charge next to the flash channel or tapping the butt of the rifle on the ground to do same is all that's required for consistant ignition, especially when using the subs.

If it shoots-out the X with real Black, don't screw-around with muskett caps :nono: .

Remember to do everything the same every time you load the rifle: same load, same charge, same number of taps on the ground, etc. Consistantcy is your friend :winking: .

Good luck and let us know how you make-out!

Dave

 

They make what they call a BP substitute. IMO There is NO substitute for BP.

 

[MikeC]

I'd like to first state that I prefer BP. That being said I also shoot Pyrodex RS and Select out of my TC caplocks using CCI Magnum and RWS caps with no problem and outstanding accuracy.

 

[redwing]

This is real good advice, follow it. I only use the crap in my 58 Remington and its mostly 777. This old gun rides along lots of miles with out cleaning and has for over 30 years.
I shoot Rock guns only and they only shoot BP.

 

[Slamfire]

I've had a similar problem, using either Pyrodox or 777. I've tried the hot nipples the 11 magnum caps and musket nipples and caps. Not one solution has completely eliminated the problem. Using real black, any old #11 cap and nipple gives me no grief.
One of my rifles gave excellent accuracy with the substitutes, but it does the same with black also. The only drawback I've experienced is I have to wipe the barrel more often. :v

 

[bpbrs]

I've never had any problems with the faux powders. If anythign I noticed they shot hotter, more velocity than BP.
Had to adjust my sights to compensate for the difference.

This is several different Percussion firearms.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

i had the same hangfire problem also with RS. All you have to do is take your nipple out and drill a hollow hole into the base of the nipple. Havnt had a hangfire ever since.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOU should instead have reduced the load of substitutes to get the same velocity that you got with BP. Then you would not have to change your sights.

People think that you don't have to clean a gun using substitutes like you do BP. They are correct! Only you have to be even more fanatical about cleaning the guns that you put substitutes into, because they corrode the metal much faster than BP will! 777 is made from Ascorbic acid, and that chemical takes moisture out of the air quickly and produces acids that will eat your barrel. Don't listen to the Hype from the Manufactures on these sub. You will regret it.

As for the original question, if you have a powder chamber, or a Patent breech with a right angle bend in it, You can have ignition problems, even using the magnum primers, or even with the Musket primers. The other thing you have to consider, particularly in these modern guns designed with fast twist rifling to shoot conicals surrounded by plastic shells, is that the temperature and pressure placed on your nipple will burn them out faster than if you simply shoot black powder. You will want to invest in a platinum lined Nipple for the gun, and if you happen to do a lot of shooting, you will want an expensive spare in your kit to replace the one you are using when it also fails.

No one gets anything for nothing. It applies to ML guns, as well as to anything else in life. People want a " cleaner powder " than black powder, so they don't have to clean the gun so often, and don't have to smell Sulphur trioxide, so someone comes up with a substitute based on ascorbic acid, and eliminates the smell, and tells you its like smokeless powder and you don't have to clean your gun right after shooting. So you buy into that.

Its a lie.

You get higher pressures, a higher ignition ( flask point) temperature, and hotter burning, which in turn required you to buy expensive nipples to get anywhere near the same performance out of the gun that shooting BP would give. And the powder costs twice as much, while they tease you will cheap guns. They sell you expensive pellets to use, so you don't have to use a powder measure, but until you know exactly what load your gun prefers, trial and error methods is very expensive, as those pellets are not cheap. And you have to use special bullets, and sabots, or " shoes " to protect them, and those bullets cost many more times the cost of a cast lead round ball. so, what people might save in the initial cost of a rifle, they pay and pay for all the special components needed to shot the gun.

Somehow, the only folks winning on this are the guys who lied to you in the first place. But if you can't recognize SNAKE OIL when it shoved under your face, there is not much anyone else can do for you.

Moral: Stick with black powder, and standard primers, and lead round balls in traditional ML rifles, and you will have a great time, both at the range, and in the woods and fields.

 

[John Taylor]

It's been more than a few years ago at a shoot that I heard a gun being fired with a hissing sound before it went bang. Turned out the guy was using Pyrodex in a flinter. We had great fun teasing the gent, talk about a hangfire with sound effects.
I have not tried all the BP replacements but the ones that I have used need to have pressure to make them burn right, like smokeless. BP will burn fast without the pressure.

 

[redwing]

The reason for the Subs. was the 1968 Safe Streets Gun bills. After these laws were passed it became impossible to ship and store black powder. The insurance got so high and the rules were tough to follow.
Yes, folks were working on Subs for years, but after the anti-black powder move it really got going . As you know it was safer. Oh' by the way the inventor of Pyrodex was killed when his plant blew up. Our Gov't is always right. :shake:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The '68 Gun Contol Act did cause us problems, but Black Powder was sold in many places until a few years ago, when the Homeland Security Act was passed and placed a large Haz Mat fee on each shipment, and allowted ATFE to increase the regulations on and storage requirements on black powder. No doubt in my mind that this is a gun owner discouragement course of action, as it has nothing to do with protecting us from terrorists. The bomb at Oklahoma, The bomb in 1993 at the World Trade Center, and, of course, 9/11 all involved more easily available explosives that are still not regulated, than Black powder. Even the 1968 bombing at Madison, Wisconsin, where a lab was destroyed with a truck bomb and killed al lone grad student studying late at night in the building, involved fertilizer, although members of Congress used the explosion to push through the curbs on Black Powder, and restricted public access to dynamite. Fertilizer was used at both New York City in 1993, and again at Oklahoma City in 1995.

Any member here can tell you how to order Black Powder shipped directly to your door, so those shooters who claim " They can't get Black Powder any more " are just being a little lazy. And when they say they don't want to buy 5 lbs. or don't know someone to split a case with, I want to know why they are not members of a local gun club, and why they are not a member of the NMLRA, and the NRA. Whining about misfires, and hangfires in their wonderguns just is not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. I am too old, and have fought the battles for our gun rights for too long.

 

[Old40Rod]

Every time I used a synthetic powder my gun would hang fire. A few times the cap went off only. But if I used black powder it shot perfectly, every time.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I suggest you stick to using real BP :winking:

I have found the same in all my rifles with a snail breech plug. I wouldn't use Pyro unless that was the only available option.

 

[Wes/Tex]

In the shoot I'm involved for highschool kids, we're forced to use Pyrodex since that's what the state buys. Fortunately, the two T/C Greyhawks and the Blue Ridge just bang away all day long. As for myself, I don't used anything synthetic in my personal fire-sticks! :winking:

 

[MSW]

this sounds like a case if if- it- ain't- broke- don't- fix- it. your muzzleloader only wants to shoot black powder. feed it black powder.

 

[bpbrs]

YOU should instead have reduced the load of substitutes to get the same velocity that you got with BP. Then you would not have to change your sights.

The load was reduced as far as I dared go and still have decent velocity; "so as not to have to lob a round in".
I have the powder/sighting in thing down to just a few shots. :v

 

[redwing]

I agree with most of what you say. But the 1968 laws were the real bell ringers. The later laws added to our woes thats for sure. The 1968 laws led states and towns to enact laws that caused higher insurance and cost to dealers.
Yes I order my powder from Graf & Sons for $12.00 put on my door step in 3days. But you have to order $300.00 bucks worth at a time to get this price. I use a lot of Schuetzen Powder so this is a good deal. I can buy Goex from a local powder house for $11.00. The point is however these laws can be avoided but they do stop many folks from buying black and shooting. :cursing:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you compared prices at Powder, Inc.? with Graf &Sons? I think both send small orders of 5 lbs, for about that same price. Only the Hazmat fee raises the cost per shipment, so that a small order will cost you more. fIf we could get Congress to eliminate that Haz Mat fee on Black Powder, and loosen some of those Homeland security restrictions on storing black powder, most of the objections to stocking it would be gone. :hmm: :grin:

I agree that the aim of all these laws it to discourage people from owning and using firearms, and powder.

 

[JCW]

I have less than satisfactory accuracy results using Pyrodex in both of my .54's. My Cabela's (Investarms) "Hawken Hunter" Is essentially the same as your carbine except for barrel length and possibly twist. Mine is the 1-48". I have the same poor results in my T/C renegade. I think the problem is that the fake BP is harder to ignite and inconsistant powder compression when loading. Just suspicions and observation on my part. Jeff.