Black Powder & Black Powder Only!?!

[shmrck1]

Once you've used black, there's no going back!

twisted,
I would certainly agree with you and Paul on
the use of the 'real deal'.However the folks that come
here I would guess for the first time are using
pyrodex.I used it at one time long before this forum exisited.I switched to the 'real deal' due
to the M/L gun club I joined. I was never forced
to use B/P and the subs were permitted.I changed
to Goex because they seem to be having more fun
than me,and to be honest I loved the smell of
real black powder,and was about $6 cheaper a pound.
I would never condem a person for using a sub
as long as they are using it in a "traditional
rifle or pistol".They will know the difference
after a very short time here at the MLF.IMO
Most of the time it is a matter of access.
You can get pyrodex about anywhere.And anywhere
will tell you it is the same as B/P.Here at the
MLF,we know the difference.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hey snake eyes,

I sure wouldn't condemn someone for using substitutes, I'm just trying use a bit 'o humor to save them the same frustration and waste of money I went through to find out what works. I'm a bit myopic when I respond to these posts, because I only shoot a flintlock, not a caplock, and subs suck in flintlocks.

The hotter spark of the those monster musket caps and 109 caps will set of the substitutes just fine in a caplock, but bp works better in caplocks too. The real problem with bp is finding it if you're not willing to mail order it.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

I think black is better for many reasons. I bought a can of black with my first gun. I sold it with the gun a few days later. When I went back, the salesman told me all these wonderful things about Pyrodex and how safe it was. I bought the Pyrodex. I shot P for over 20 years. It is perfectly usable, accurate enough to win against black powder, and only a little bit harder to clean. Since Wally World sells out their powder cheap after the hunting season closes, I pay between 5 and 7$ a pound. Since there is no black for sale within an hours drive that I know of, and Wally world is 5 minutes away, I find it hard find fault with 5$ a pound powder five minutes from home. 777 is more accurate than black in several of my guns and ignites a little easier than Pyrodex. The fouling draws moisture to it so bad that it is not a good hunting powder for those times when a fouled gun will be reloaded and then left loaded for a time waiting for game. It cleans up great. I think I paid 10$ a can for the 777 I have.
777 makes a hard course fouling that requires wet swabs in dry weather if you want good accuracy. It produces a crud ring right about where the ball sits when fully loaded. Wet patches between shots are not an option. They are required for target work.
Pyrodex is harder to clean and more potentially damaging to the barrel than black. It is harder to ignite. I tend to remove the screw and use a prime under the nipple when I am hunting. Every few shots it is wise to bust a cap on an empty barrel just like you would do with black. The Pyrodex/BB combination works great together. I shoot about 20 cans a year of RS these days. I can shoot my 12 guage all day without swabbing using it, and that is without lube at all. When shot without lube, it cleans the same as black does. Pyrodex will pit a barrel in a heartbeat if you don't clean them properly, and even worse, those pits continue to erode since the chemicals involved are hard to stop once pits form. That and the harder to ignite comments are about the most truth about it that you will find from some folks here.
If had a choice with caplock and all three powders, I would take black. If black has become a hassle in your area, the subs work just fine. The people that use them are not second class citizens, and if they lose at the shoot, it isn't the powders fault. It is the manufacturers responsibility to ensure access to their product, not the buyers.
Pauls insistance that we all use black is wrong. I will go back to using black when it goes back on sale locally at a reasonable price. I would continue to use RS in my shotgun if black was free because pyrodex is vastly superior to black for that purpose. I will not store 5 pounds of black in my home because I have seen what happens when the fire reaches the black compared to a whole pile of modern powders. Those that choose to do so need to stop speaking bad about those that do not. People do not have to agree with your personal viewpoint on this issue any more than any other. It isn't a them and us issue. We are all part of us.

 

[paulvallandigham]

There are lots of people like Runner who absolutely refuse to change in any way. He wants the world to spin his way, or he's not staying! or something.... :surrender:

The accessibility complaint is just a non-starter for me. The only way my gun club could buy black powder 35 years ago was to do an annual purchase order, and pay a member's gas to drive a hundred miles to a dealer in Indiana to buy several hundred pounds of powder, which was then distributed to the buyers when we returned. We were paying about $3.00 per pound in those days, and still paid his gas bill, with the club making about $.10 per pound for the club's treasury( big finance, hah? )

Today, you can order powder, anywhere in the USA from Powder, Inc, or Graf & sons, and from another supplier out East, if comments on this forum are true, in small quantities as low as 5 lbs. and have them delivered to your door. The cost is about $12.00 per pound. If you compare prices and inflation indexes for the last 35 years, you are actually paying less for powder now, than we were back then.

If people want to pay $18-28.00 per pound for the substitutes, just for the " convenience " of finding them in a local mass merchandising Department store, so be it. But, don't complain here about accessibility. Show me your hand written letter to your congressman and two senators asking them to introduce legislation reversing those Federal REGULATIONS that are making it impossible for stores to carry Black Powder, and I will begin to believe your sincerity. :hmm:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Runner - thanks for the rundown on 777, hope to see chrono comparisions between it and BP and Pyrodex sometime. I've never tried it but it is made in 'pellets', 30 grs, that fit BP revolvers and supposedly easier cleaning. I mostly use loose 3F BP but those 'pellets' make loading faster even than carrying stoppered containers of 3F. sometimes this is handy.

 

[Runner]

According to the latest reports, most of my 777 info is dated. When it first came out, 3f was very hot when compared to Goex or Pyrodex. The loose was both hotter and more consistant in the beginning. Some of those early runs were contaminated with Pyrodex which accounted for the sulpher smell that the current stuff is not supposed to make anymore. The figures you see these days are about 15 percent under those being posted in the beginning and the consistancy is no where near what was reported early on, but those early reports were often modern guns. My CVA Hawken Shoots it very well as far as group, but I would have to change the sights because the group is high. The 36 shooting 25 grains is target accurate. Shooting it at a monthly club shoot, we took a break after the shoot was over so they could take care of club business. Our guns sat on a humid day for about 15 minutes or so. The fouling was liquid by that time and it took a lot of care to be able to load and shoot at all. That was a very humid day and regular black was doing the same thing. Later, while testing some modern components with 777, I observed a hard fouling that formed from the blowby thru the nipple. I attempted to remove it with my thumb nail, and was unsuccessfull. A sudden rain happened and I went back out with the fouled gun into the steamy humid aftermath. The fouling that was too hard to scratch off 15 minutes before turned into running black sludge, and it did it quick. I decided to test at the farm on a squirrel hunt. As the day went on in the humid area around the water, the hangs and problems became more and more of a problem. Unless you clean between shots, the fouling is worse about drawing moisture than any fouling I have ever seen. The powder produces a hard fouling ring right about where you want to seat your bullet. You almost have to swab between shots with something liquid enough to handle the crud ring or your load will get a little longer each time you load. The powder has very good potential for use as a clean barrel first shot hunting propellant. It doesn't work in flinters without a prime. You will have to talk to someone else about current power levels. The recoil impulse is much more like a modern cartridge gun than it is to what black produces.
Like Pyrodex, it is completely usable in a caplock once someone takes the time to work up loads and methods that work with it, not black. Too many folks try it while using black powder methods and are disappointed.

 

Today, you can order powder, anywhere in the USA from Powder, Inc, or Graf & sons, and from another supplier out East, if comments on this forum are true, in small quantities as low as 5 lbs. and have them delivered to your door. The cost is about $12.00 per pound. If you compare prices and inflation indexes for the last 35 years, you are actually paying less for powder now, than we were back then.

If people want to pay $18-28.00 per pound for the substitutes, just for the " convenience " of finding them in a local mass merchandising Department store, so be it.

FWIW and to keep the facts straight - Goex BP at Powder, Inc in 5 lb lots (Graf only sells it in 25 lb cases) is $18.40 to $24.00 a lb not $12.00 a lb. That $12.00 price is ONLY when purchased in 25 lb case lots - that equals $300.00. Even in a 5 lb lot that's $100.00 bill, something that is NOT in the cards for everybody out there.

As for the subs - not all are made alike - Pyrodex, the only one I'm familiar with, is made of the same three ingredients as real black powder plus some additives that make it less heat/pressure sensitive than real black. Dan Pawliak was the man who originally developed it in the 1970's. He died in explosion and Hodgdon picked up the ball and finished developing it. I knew Dan and he was a good man trying to make things easier for folks who loved our old guns at a time when not only Federal law, but Local laws made it difficult to own/purchase real black powder. His intention was nothing more nor less than that...

With all that said I use and prefer the "real" deal (have done so since 1962), but I have NO problem with those who prefer the subs, it's their choice and is no skin off my nose if that is their choice - if they ask I offer an opinion, otherwise I keep my mouth shut. As for some of the marketing whofaraw - well it's always been and always will be caveat emptor.......

as for hand written letters? Don't know why they'd be more effective than one typewritten or computer produced or even an email - the folks reading them don't give a hoot and a holler in what format they be - just send them no matter what the format - it's numbers not format that counts! I've sent hundreds if not thousands over the years - no matter the format I've gotten a reply - usually a "form" letter, but often enough a "real" letter or even a call to do they do some good at least - but it's the numbers that really count!
And oh yeah a phone call or three can be as or even more effective...

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu don't know why? You obviously have not talked to politicians or their staff. Hand written letters usually get priority for a written response: Next, comes typed letters, which get a form letter response: Phone calls are recorded on a tally sheet, as plus or minus. And you rarely get through to actually talk to the politician. Email are read by the staff, only and put on a tally sheet, For or Against a bill.

Personal visits get the greatest response, if you can find the politician. That can be quite a challenge at the Contressional level, as they have more places to duck out to than there are pebbles on a seashore. Their staffs work to alert them to who is waiting at the office, and they stay away when you are not someone they want to meet. Your party affiliation makes little difference. How much you contribute to their campaign MAY get the door opened for a personal chat, but that is about it. If you don't have money, then put yourself at the head of a group of interested voters. Know how many votes he won office by the last election. If your groups controls more than half that vote total, you represent a real danger to his staying in office if he isn't " Nice ". If you have a group that can supply campaign workers, in large numbers, you represent an asset that is almost as good as a monetary donation. He will try to be " nice " to you.

Them's the rules, bub. If you don't understand them, you have little to no chance of winning anything. With them, and talking to other people of like mind, you can win anything you desire.

That brings me to the bellyaching over prices. Of course a company is going to give you the best price for a large volume order. So, you don't have a quick $300-$500 to buy a case of powder at one time. But, HOW ABOUT GETTING SOME FRIENDS together, who all chip in money to buy powder until you do have that money to get the best price? That is one of the best reasons to join a local Black powder club, or to form one if one doesn't exist, NO? Its a good reason to join the NMLRA, too. And to get insurance, check out the insurance programs for both the NMLRA and the NRA. It might be worth your while to become an NRA charter club, too.

Now, when you want to talk to a Congressman, or State legislator, you can represent all the members of that club, or all similar clubs in your state. You can help a friendly candidate get votes by contacting your club members, and notifying other clubs in the state that a good candidate needs their support. Always copy the candidate with any such letters. He may not get around to reading them, but his campaign manager will, and eventually the candidate will get around to thanking you, and asking what he can do for you.