Black powder or Pyrodex

[Horizontal Hunter]

Gentlemen,
a big thank you to everyone who replied to my query! The main thing I learned, confirming my suspicions, is that Pyrodex is unreliable and unstable. How else can completely different results be explained? A number of you said it shoots fine, stores well, no problems. But many others tell me it’s not real accurate, very difficult to clean, looses strength and needs hot caps and special nipples to get it to fire reliably. Several responders said it’s extremely difficult to clean, others said it cleans easier than black powder.

So, I guess I’ll order some black powder from Graf, biting the bullet on cost. Whitetail bucks are tough enough to get a shot at, I don’t want to handicap myself with a propellant that may or may not fire, or if it does may not shoot accurately, or May foul my gun so bad I have to spend hours in camp cleaning it in the evenings. Neither will I need to buy different caps or special nipples. I’ve just not heard enough good comments to give me confidence enough to use Pyrodex on a hunt. Maybe on the range, but not on a hunt. Just the same, i do sincerely thank every one of you who took the time to type out a reply to me. I learned what I needed to know.

In my younger and more foolish days I had limited days to hunt and would hunt in wet weather as I didn’t have the luxury to hunt when the weather was perfect. During the blue bird days of hunting Pyrodex always went bang without an issue in my cap lock and the accuracy was fine as long as I did my part but when it was really damp and drizzly I would get hang fires and occasionally a pop but no bang.

When I switched to real black powder all that went away.

I’m going to insert an old quote from Zonie on ignition temperatures below that says it all in my book.

Bob

After some research I can say:

Pyrodex is said to have an auto-ignition temperature of 740 degrees F. (Material Safety Data Sheet)

Hodgdon Triple Seven seems to be difficult to find a ignition temperature for.
I suspect that it is perhaps a little less than Pyrodex, at least in the pellet form. Hodgdon says that both the Triple Seven and Pyrodex pellets need a 209 primer to fire them but it coats the rear of the Pyrodex pellets with black powder as a starter while the Triple Seven pellets do not have this starter.


"Black Mag claims an ignition temperature of 345 C while black powder ignites at 300 C." per an article in Blackpowder Journal Vol 1, No 4.
That would be 572 degrees F for black powder and 653 degrees for Black Mag.

When all is said and done, Black powder has the lowest temperature ignition requirement and none of the rest of the new black powder substitutes work worth a damn in a Flintlock.

Because Black Powder has the lowest ignition point I feel that it will always give more reliable, faster ignition in any muzzleloading firearm so if a choice is to be made a person would be wise to use it if they can find it.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hello All,
I‘ve learned black powder is unavailable here in the Green Bay Area of Wisconsin. Retailers only carry Pyrodex and a few have Triple 7. I have less than 1/2 lb. of Goex powder left and was hoping to buy a can for deer season. I do have a pound of unopened Pyrodex that was given to me, but I’ve never shot the stuff. If I resort to using it, what recommendations does anyone have that I should keep in mind? I’ve heard rumors about accuracy. Thanks for any help you can give.

Very simply, the substitutes work fine for Percussion Cap muzzleloaders. They don't work for in a flintlock because the all have a flash point about 400° higher (hotter) than black powder needs to light off.

I had a little bit of success with 777 in my flintlock longrifle when I first got it but it was totally unreliable. It might go off once in one out of 5 or 10 tries. Never could get Pyrodex to even think about igniting in a flintlock. This was in Vermont in about 2003 or so. Then I found I still had a jar of black powder in my garage with the Pedersoli Kentucky percussion cap pistol that I had purchased back in 1968. I tried using the black powder from that jar and it worked every time. Many years later someone here on the forum posted the various flashpoints of Black Powder vs. Pyrodex, 777, and a couple of others. All of the substitutes had flashpoints in the area of 400° higher than what it took to ignite black powder.

After searching all over for black powder, I friend told me to find it in the next village down the road, about 6-miles from my house. In my part of Vermont there were a number of Slate quarries. These Slate quarries like to use black powder because it has lower frequency (slower) vibrations when it explodes and it typically breaks off larger chunks. So I went to the folks who supplied them with Black Powder in the next village over and bought it typically a pound at a time whenever I needed it.

Only disadvantage to Slate quarries using BP for quarrying Slate is that they were too close to our house and if they exceeded the maximum explosion magnitude they were allowed by law to use, it would knock stuff off the shelves in our house. Just had to keep reminding myself that the whole reason BP was easy for me to get was because of these Slate quarries.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Gentlemen,
a big thank you to everyone who replied to my query! The main thing I learned, confirming my suspicions, is that Pyrodex is unreliable and unstable. How else can completely different results be explained? A number of you said it shoots fine, stores well, no problems. But many others tell me it’s not real accurate, very difficult to clean, looses strength and needs hot caps and special nipples to get it to fire reliably. Several responders said it’s extremely difficult to clean, others said it cleans easier than black powder.

So, I guess I’ll order some black powder from Graf, biting the bullet on cost. Whitetail bucks are tough enough to get a shot at, I don’t want to handicap myself with a propellant that may or may not fire, or if it does may not shoot accurately, or May foul my gun so bad I have to spend hours in camp cleaning it in the evenings. Neither will I need to buy different caps or special nipples. I’ve just not heard enough good comments to give me confidence enough to use Pyrodex on a hunt. Maybe on the range, but not on a hunt. Just the same, i do sincerely thank every one of you who took the time to type out a reply to me. I learned what I needed to know.

PM me.

 

[Howard Pippin]

I am now in a more favorable financial situation than I have ever been, having put my children through Christian School, and finished paying for college educations, and all the other expenses of raising a family. I am also very fortunate in that I live close to a business that sells black powder, thus avoiding shipping and hazmat fees. For many, myself included, the cost of buying cases of powder, and then the added burden of shipping and hazmat fees is prohibitive. It is possible to enjoy an activity, while at the same time not being able to do it to the level of someone else. Many of my guns I received as gifts, others I bought a very long time ago when they were relatively cheap. Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken, $400 (currently $1999), SXS shotguns that I paid $239 a piece for, $99 steel Colt Navies, etc. I also have more percussion caps then I will ever shoot, having accumulated them for four plus decades, buying them very cheaply (as little as $.59 a tin) at end of season clearance sales.

At today's prices, I would never be able to replace the stuff I have. Some folks never had these opportunities to buy stuff cheap, as they either were born too late, or simply had more important obligations. If you have been successful enough in life to be able to buy custom rifles and throw down $700+ for a case of black powder, I am happy for your prosperity. Not everyone can do it, some have to buy cheaper mass produced guns, and most have to buy a pound or two of powder at a time. That does not mean that a person is less enthusiastic or dedicated to muzzleloading sports, they just are required to live within certain parameters. As to the original post, I will reiterate again, I have used Pyrodex successfully for 46 years, I have NEVER had a failure to fire (or even a hangfire) when the cap ignited. However, if you decide to use real black, that is your decision based upon what works best for you. I wish you good success in your hunt.

A very good post. As much as I think it works just fine, I actually haven't used much pyrodex for quite a while, having switched to 777 for my two percussions that I enjoy shooting. I don't have the high-priced guns that others do, whether it's unmentionables or muzzle loaders, but at my age I don't answer to anybody except possibly the misses. I save my black for my flintlock, generally shoot it at the one club I belong to, only off the shooting line. When we trail walk I like to take my .50 percussion, it has one of those nylon stocks and only a 24 inch barrel, it is a side lock but it only weighs 5 and three quarter pounds and I can shoot it offhand. Just enjoy what you do.
Squint

 

[lgrimes]

When I started shooting in club shoots back in the 1970's I was shooting a standard TC Hawken. Pyrodex was new at that time and was cheap and easy to come by. I used it for several years in the rifle and had good luck with it. I don't remember what year the plant blew up, but I don't think I ever got another pound of the good Pyrodex powder. It didn't seem as accurate as it had been in the past. At the time I thought it was my rifle as I had shot thousands of round through it with nothing but Pyrodex. I sold my TC and built my current rifle. My first club shoot with my new rifle one of the segments of the shoot the guy I sold the old Hawken to beat me with it. Both of used black for the match. I don't think my old rifle was as worn as I thought it was. I think I'll use black from now on as long as I can still find it.

 

[ernbar]

Hello All,
I‘ve learned black powder is unavailable here in the Green Bay Area of Wisconsin. Retailers only carry Pyrodex and a few have Triple 7. I have less than 1/2 lb. of Goex powder left and was hoping to buy a can for deer season. I do have a pound of unopened Pyrodex that was given to me, but I’ve never shot the stuff. If I resort to using it, what recommendations does anyone have that I should keep in mind? I’ve heard rumors about accuracy. Thanks for any help you can give.

The first time I shot a BP pistol was with Pyrodex because it was the only thing available at the time. It works the same as BP so use it but follow the recommended loads per the manufacturer. Clean up is the same as regular BP. I use plain water mixed with Ballistol (moose milk) and then lube with straight Ballistol. As with regular BP, clean as soon as possible preferably as you get home cause both Pyro and BP are corrosive. I still use Pyro along with BP , hope this helps.
If you want to use real BP look into Graf and Sons. Once in a while they run free shipping and no hazmat fees as promotions. A while back they had their house brand BP which is actually Schuetzen for $18.99 a pound. Buying several jugs will save you a lot of $ even with the hazmat in the equation.

 

[Wisconsin Relic]

PM me.

Dale, not sure how to do that.

 

[French Colonial]

Dale, not sure how to do that.

Click on his name below his avatar (picture) and then click on "start a conversation"

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

My $0.02.
I have a flinter centered around a Rice barrel with a L&R lock. I only shoot 777 (3F, it's a .45) with a pinch of 4F Goex in the pan. In my experience it's VERY consistent, but it's 15% more potent per volume than BP is. 777 leaves less residue in the barrel per shot, and it rusts a little slower than BP if you can't clean up right away.
My main problem with 777 is it don't smoke like BP does.

 

[satwel]

If you decide that shooting Pyrodex is your only option, my recommendation is to clean your rifle as soon as possible after firing. The perchlorate (salt) base used in Pyrodex is a strong oxidizer which makes it much more corrosive than black powder. There are purists on the muzzle loading forums who say they would never shoot Pyrodex under any circumstances. They claim the damage Pyrodex does to bores starts the moment you pull the trigger. I'm not sure if I believe those claims, but since I shoot flintlocks almost exclusively, I stick with real black powder. Years ago I did try Pyrodex in a percussion rifle and I did experience some barrel corrosion, due mainly to a haphazard cleaning, but that convinced me that Pyrodex is indeed way more corrosive than real black powder.

 

[AlexB]

My $0.02.
I have a flinter centered around a Rice barrel with a L&R lock. I only shoot 777 (3F, it's a .45) with a pinch of 4F Goex in the pan. In my experience it's VERY consistent, but it's 15% more potent per volume than BP is. 777 leaves less residue in the barrel per shot, and it rusts a little slower than BP if you can't clean up right away.
My main problem with 777 is it don't smoke like BP does.

Price on triple 7 here is up to $47 A pound.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Price on triple 7 here is up to $47 A pound.

Yeah. Gonna hurt when I refill. I normally get 8 or 10 lbs at a time, 2F and 3F. That hazmat fee, she is the girl-dog.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

I tried P Dex in my Flinter. Ground up some for use in the pan. Did it work? yes. As good as black? No. But it worked.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

I tried some 3F Triple 7 in my pan as an experiment, and it flashed fine. 3 times in a row. Maybe just got lucky.

 

[45man]

My .54 seems to only like Pyrodex and accuracy is superb with shots touching at 50 yards and also able to hit targets at 200 meters.
BUT, During shipping grains break and there will be a lot of fines in the lower part of the cans. I watched accuracy go bad as the can got low. I made a screen of a wood box and fabric with small holes to let fines fall through. I can now shoot the whole can without a change. I have not seen it go bad with age.
I hate 777 as it does not like any compression at all. Pyrodex can take compression but the more even you make it the better. I made a block with a strong spring in it to put on my ramrod and when the ball is down I compress the spring fully to even out the pressure.

 

[George73]

I put 50gr. of pyrodex in my 50 cal. Kentucky percussion rifle and it would not fire. I now only use BP.

 

[Mad L]

If anyone knows where I can buy a couple cans of BP, please let me know.

Only place you can buy any "CANS" of black powder is from someone's old stock or powder someone dumped into old 'cans'.
I still have a few 'cans' of GOEX and a couple of OE, after that I will be breaking into the Bottles, that it is sold in now.

As for Pyrodex; never used it, have no need for it, best of luck to you, some love it, some hate it, I don't want it.

As others have said; Black powder is available, has been for some time.
But you are CORRECT; no one local has it anymore unless you are lucky enough to live near one of the Distributors.
Today you save up and spend between $160 to $250 and stock up, then sit back with piece of mind.
Same with Caps if you are shooting Percussion, same with flints - stock up, sit back and relax.
It won't go bad if you shoot just once or twice a year, not like Pyrodex.

.....well, I do hear that flints might mold then go stale, but there are threads here to help you keep them fresh for a long time.

Bottom line: the days of buying one pound of pouder and one tin of caps a year for hunting season are: GONE.
Stock up, sit back and relax.

 

[LME]

I put 50gr. of pyrodex in my 50 cal. Kentucky percussion rifle and it would not fire. I now only use BP.

Are you sure you didn't make a mistake when loading your M.L.?

 

[LME]

A very good post. As much as I think it works just fine, I actually haven't used much pyrodex for quite a while, having switched to 777 for my two percussions that I enjoy shooting. I don't have the high-priced guns that others do, whether it's unmentionables or muzzle loaders, but at my age I don't answer to anybody except possibly the misses. I save my black for my flintlock, generally shoot it at the one club I belong to, only off the shooting line. When we trail walk I like to take my .50 percussion, it has one of those nylon stocks and only a 24 inch barrel, it is a side lock but it only weighs 5 and three quarter pounds and I can shoot it offhand. Just enjoy what you do.
Squint

You listen to your misses? My wife knows who runs things in our house. I might add that she is doing a great job. LOL!

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

A very good post. As much as I think it works just fine, I actually haven't used much pyrodex for quite a while, having switched to 777 for my two percussions that I enjoy shooting. I don't have the high-priced guns that others do, whether it's unmentionables or muzzle loaders, but at my age I don't answer to anybody except possibly the misses. I save my black for my flintlock, generally shoot it at the one club I belong to, only off the shooting line. When we trail walk I like to take my .50 percussion, it has one of those nylon stocks and only a 24 inch barrel, it is a side lock but it only weighs 5 and three quarter pounds and I can shoot it offhand. Just enjoy what you do.
Squint

You ever try 777 in your flinter with a 4F BP priming? Works good for me.