Black powder vs new versions???

[SamF]

Hello
I am new to the forums and looking for some advice. I am shooting a TC Hawken in 50 caliber. This is a percussion rifle. I have always shot 3F black powder. I know there are several powders like pyrodex and others that are supposed to be less corrosive. Do you recommend one of these newer powders? What are the real world advantages? Are the velocities equivalent? I am sighted in for a patched round ball with 90 grains of standard black powder. Would the newer powders be the same amount to produce the same velocity?
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[jamesthomas]

Pyrodex is not new and is more corrosive and there are no advantages using the "fake" blackpowder. than regular blackpowder. Just keep doing what your doing and all will be well. :thumbsup: .Plus blackpowder is cheaper when bought in bulk ie. 10lbs plus.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Two quick thoughts would be that it's not the black powder but the hydroscopic nature of the blown powder's residue that's the guilty culprit. Secondly is that the synthetic powders are not corrosion proof, they only can damage the bore in different ways if not cleaned up after. I've played with a couple of the others through the years but only use black powder now. Since I went "rocklock" years ago, except for percussion pistols, that's the way I roll. Your mileage may vary, but I'd stay with black and use a touch of elbow-grease afterwards! :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Pyrodex is far MORE corrosive.
T7 is pretty much non-corrosive the chlorate has been removed.
Other powders are generally non-corrosive.
But few have the shelf life or ballistic uniformity of BP.
Most of these are remakes or slight modifications of powders tried and abandoned at some point in the 19th c.
Pyrodex is a BULK powder it is not used weight for weight with BP but is used volume for volume.
T-7 is hotter than Pdex.

BP is far more predictable and in some cases safer than the "substitutes" none of which have much if anything in common with BP other than people use them in BP arms. If you are looking for something "better" it does not really exist.
I have a rifle that I have shot for about 25 years, BP only, and there is no sign of corrosion.

Dan

 

[Kentuckywindage]

even the guys at hodgdon will tell you that pyrodex is no more corrosive than BP.

If you dont clean your guns,they both will rust your bore out.

Oh lets hear it! But, bp wont do it as fast. .... :rotf:

 

[rodwha]

I was given Pyrodex with my pistol. I greatly dislike the stuff, and have been using it in my new sidelock rifle while I'm breaking it in.

I've been using 3F Triple 7 in my cap n ball Ruger. It's stainless, which may make a big difference, but it cleans up quickly and easily, and doesn't get fouled up like it did with the Pyrodex.

I intend on stocking one powder for my two arms, and have been figuring it to be the T7 as I want something energetic since I intend to use it for hunting.

Now that I am buying powder in bulk, which reduces my overall cost, I intend on trying some Goex Olde Eynsford, which is supposed to be fairly similar in power to Swiss and T7. And it's much cheaper. If I like it I will likely switch.

Olde E and Swiss burn cleaner than most other BPs from what I read, and you could likely reduce your charge to get similar results as you have been. I'd give it a try before I did anything else. But maybe you'll appreciate T7, and maybe you'll get the crud ring I read it leaves. Don't know about that as I have t used it in my rifle yet.

 

[Zonie]

Pyrodex is far MORE corrosive.
T7 is pretty much non-corrosive the chlorate has been removed....

Dan

Dan:
If you can open and read Adobe files you should take a look at the MSDS for Seven seven seven.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct..._hn7cHX6rFASOoW0_NQp-rg&bvm=bv.47883778,d.dmg

Note the ingredients listed are Charcoal, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Perchlorate and graphite.

If you open this link to Hodgdons Pyrodex MSDS you will find the same ingredients with the addition of sulfur.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...XTyXlfft_denYWVyaJmMxOA&bvm=bv.47883778,d.dmg

Although the percentages of each ingredient is undoubtably different these powders need an oxidizer and that is the reason Potassium Perchlorate is in both. It provides the oxygen.

Getting back to the original question, all of the muzzleloading powders fouling will cause corrosion.

Over the years the various advertizing departments for all of the synthetic powders have tried to spin the yarn that their powders are non-corrosive.

Saying that is true. Their unburned powders are non-corrosive but when they ignite, they all leave fouling that can and will cause corrosion.

The answer to this is, never leave a muzzleloader that has been fired uncleaned for any length of time.
Always clean them with water (and soap if an oily lube has been used).

After cleaning and drying the barrel apply one of the good rust preventatives that are available.

 

[tenngun]

Bough some prodex and it works volume for volume,so you get about 20% more shots per pound.It stinks looks funny and gives me an unclean feeling when I shoot it.I will use it up and even shoot a duplex load in my rock in the locks.Still front loaders deseve bp.It makes the spirt of the gun happy.In dry climates pryrdex willrust faster and deeper uncleaned the bp will.In humid clims little differance.If you have the stuff clean well and oil deep.If you dont have it dont buy it

 

[Loyalist Dave]

there are no advantages using the "fake" blackpowder. than regular blackpowder.

Yeah I was told that the first substitute, Pyrodex, was developed as the storage requirements for shops in many jusrisdictions had changed to needing a "safer" place than placing the black powder on the shelf..., not to mention shipping..., so Pyrodex was invented to avoid such restrictions as it behaves differently ignited in the container than BP. It wasn't to make something "better" for the shooter; it was for the shopkeeper. Nothing wrong with that as many of us live a good distance these days from folks who will sell the real thing.

LD

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have several rifles that do best with Triple Seven. Some also do best with Goex 3F. Use what your rifle likes best.

 

[Paul_R]

even the guys at hodgdon will tell you that pyrodex is no more corrosive than BP.

Really? The people who make and sell Pyrodex say that? Shocking!

 

[Little Wattsy]

From one that actually shoots and hunts with Pyrodex I say, I like it. Its more readily available where I live, Its less expensive to shoot, and doesn't foul as much as real BP. Like ANY black powder it requires clean up after shooting to preserve the quality of the gun.
The choice, in my opinion, is more the emotional decision in brand association and value (cost / availability).
Who knows it may shoot tighter groups in your gun too... ? :hatsoff:

 

[Ranch 13]

Dan layed it out pretty straight. When Pyrodex came out in the late 70's there were a gawdawful lot of guns wrecked because the residue from the stuff ate the innards of the barrel, drums, snails and locks.
Even Hogdons says that it's corrosive and the gun needs to be cleaned immediately after shooting.
Regular black is relatively inexpensive, readily available, and dependable in all types of weather, and if you open a can and don't get back to it for 20 years it'll still be good.

 

[Rifleman1776]

front loaders deseve bp.It makes the spirt of the gun happy.

Amen, Bro.
Others have answered and re-answered the original question.
If tradition means anything to you, stick with real bp and enjoy.
Basically, this is a do yer own thing game. Only a few of us might scalp ye for using fake powders. :wink:
Welcome to the forum. Wear your skin thickener when ye come here. :grin:

 

[SamF]

Thanks for the replies. I always clean immediately afterwards regardless, was just wondering if any of the newer powders offered any advantages. Thanks again.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Dan layed it out pretty straight. When Pyrodex came out in the late 70's there were a gawdawful lot of guns wrecked because the residue from the stuff ate the innards of the barrel, drums, snails and locks.
Even Hogdons says that it's corrosive and the gun needs to be cleaned immediately after shooting.
Regular black is relatively inexpensive, readily available, and dependable in all types of weather, and if you open a can and don't get back to it for 20 years it'll still be good.

So basically its the fool behind the gun thats at fault right?

 

[Bob J]

Sam, I tried quite a few different substitutes over the years and went back to "real" black powder. Just can't beat the accuracy and reliability of the authentic stuff! Personally, I use Goex, but others here have their favorites as well.

 

[bpd303]

Right I have never seen a gun destroy itself... :grin: and there's nothing quite like the smell of real black powder in the morning.

 

[hanshi]

It has been verified; one can't get into Heaven with Pyrodex on one's breath. :grin:

I have a couple cans of the stuff that were given to me years ago. I tried it in two different handguns and didn't like it one bit.

 

[Wes/Tex]

When Pyrodex came out in the late 70's there were a gawdawful lot of guns wrecked because the residue from the stuff ate the innards of the barrel, drums, snails and locks.

This happened when the word got out to the front stuffer community that it wasn't necessary to clean up right after shooting...many took this to mean no clean up at all, and so it began. The synthetic powders are more prone to chloride pitting than the straight rusting found with black powder. Either way, use what you like but clean up the gun soon and every time, no matter what you use! :wink: