Black powder vs new versions???

[Billnpatti]

When shooting a caplock gun, the substitutes will work just fine but may cost more than real black powder. Unfortunately, many shooters live in areas where they do not have access to black powder without buying it through the mail and having to pay the HazMat fees that can be pretty stiff. These unfortunates are stuck with no choice but to use substitutes and as a result cannot shoot a flintlock because none of the substitutes will work in a flintlock.

One downside that is reported about the substitutes, I cannot address it because I do not use any of the substitutes, it that they are more corrosive than black powder. Even if this is so and you diligently clean your gun immediately after shooting it, it should be a non-issue. If you are careless and occasionally leave your gun dirty for a day or a few days, a more corrosive substance will be an issue. Leaving black powder residue in your gun for a day or so is a very bad practice so if the substitutes are more corrosive than black powder, you can see the necessity for cleaning as soon as possible. If you have a choice, I highly recommend black powder over any of the substitutes.

 

[tsafa]

Pyrodex is about 10% hotter then Black Powder. I find clean up to be about the same.


Tripple Seven is 25% stronger then Black Powder. This is infact much cleaner then Black Powder... but you still have to clean the gun after.

The advantage of Pyrodex or Tripple Seven for me is when you want maximum power from a revolver that has limited chamber space. In a rifle... not an issue because you can always load 125 grains BP vs 100 grains Tripple Seven.

 

[AZbpBurner]

The argument of one powder vs another is largely akin to the Ford vs Chebby debate. Whichever one you drive is better than the other.

While Genuine Black powder is universally the propellant of choice, it's just not available everywhere anymore.

My Flint GPR, of course gets first dibs on the 3F BP stash, while a .54 caplock has been running exclusively Pyrodex RS - and with accuracy that's impressive to me.

The Cap & Ball revolvers all work equivalently well with either 3F BP or Pyrodex P, and fouling seems a little less with the Pyrodex.

If I have a few stops on the way home from the range that will significantly delay clean up, I just run a couple of patches of Windex down the bores & follow-up with some of that nasty, Diesel-Flavored WW I bore cleaner. It is reputed to remove corrosive residue, but, as far as I'm concerned, hot soapy water is the best - the Relic Bore cleaner just provides a coat of nasty hydrocarbons that keep oxygen away from the residual corrosive residue for just a little longer.

As for 777 - I think it's kinda expensive for my plinking, and accuracy isn't as good as my BP & Pyrodex loads. I may give it a try in the 1862 Colt New Model Police, which has less powder capacity & may need a little more oomph.

I have enough Pyrodex RS to last me well into next year & when its' gone, I'll worry about bringing home some 2F BP - Thunderstick in Tucson carries BP, but they don't always have 2F when I'm down there.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Do you recommend one of these newer powders?

Nope. Just the opposite.

What are the real world advantages?

They are available in Alaska and Hawaii. Can't think of a third.

Are the velocities equivalent?

You can achieve parity by adjusting the load.

 

[Shooey]

Hi Sam, I used to use Pyrodex in my GPR .50 cal percussion rifle. I would get frequent "hangfires," a noticable lag between the cap going off and the main charge going off. So I switched to real BP and I get reliable iginitien EVERY time. Groups didn't change.

The debate about which one is cleaner didn't really matter to me, because I clean my gun after every use anyway.

 

[Rifleman1776]

When Pyrodex came out in the late 70's there were a gawdawful lot of guns wrecked because the residue from the stuff ate the innards of the barrel, drums, snails and locks.

Correct. When Pyrodex first came out (not yet owned by Hogdens) the advertising said it "....does not corrode like black powder. Many took that to mean it did not cause corrosion.
What it really meant, but was carefully disguised by the ad writers, was it did cause corrosion but in a manny different than black powder. Got it? I did corrode but not in the way like black powder. I hope there is a special place in hell for ad writers who create misleading stuff like that.

 

[necchi]

"I hope there is a special place in hell for ad writers who create misleading stuff like that."

:rotf: Truth to that!
I don't know where they're going to go, but I'm sure it'll be right next to the Lawyers that defend them!!
Are they kinda telling the truth or kinda lying?

 

[cynthialee]

Hi Sam, I used to use Pyrodex in my GPR .50 cal percussion rifle. I would get frequent "hangfires," a noticable lag between the cap going off and the main charge going off. So I switched to real BP and I get reliable iginitien EVERY time. Groups didn't change.

The debate about which one is cleaner didn't really matter to me, because I clean my gun after every use anyway.

Well sure get all logical and remove emotion from the debate....I see how you are.

 

[Cowboy2]

Triple Seven is all I use in my caplock and cap and ball revolvers. So long as you can afford it, its really a no-brainer. The ease of clean up alone makes it worth the price. Velocity is great, and accuracy equals or surpasses my experience with BP and Pyrodex. And it isn't remotely as aggressive in terms of corrosion as Pyrodex and BP.

I only wish they'd come up with a formula that will work in flintlocks. Its worth the money to try a pound of it.

 

[RevGeo]

I generally do most of my shooting while hunting (or sighting in) and I use BP and Pyrodex in my .50 caplock. I always clean my rifle right after shooting so the corrosion problem is not a one vs. the other problem with me. I have never had a problem with Pyrodex or BP (except the very rare hangfire - but I doubt those are a powder problem..). I shoot what I can get. I use Pyrodex P and FFF Goex in my rifle and my .36 c&b revolver. As far as a BP substitute hurting the spirit of my rifle, I think the plastic sights negate anything of the sort :wink:

 

[Zonie]

The comments about Pyrodex and Seven7seven containing potassium perchlorate causing worse corrosion than real black powder got my interest.

As near as I can tell, when Potassium Perchlorate is used as the oxidizer in these synthetic black powders one of the things it creates is Potassium Chloride which it leaves in the barrel.

Potassium Chloride is pretty good stuff for people with some health problems because it can be used to replace Sodium Chloride in their diets. It tastes salty.

As we all know, Sodium Chloride is the fancy scientific name for Table Salt.

The problem is, just like table salt, Potassium Chloride is also a salt that will corrode steel if any moisture mixes with it and it loves moisture. :hmm:

I haven't had a problem with corrosion in my guns after shooting Pyrodex but it is very dry here in the Arizona deserts and I clean my guns as soon as possible after shooting them.

I recommend that anyone else who uses synthetic black powders do the same.

 

[cynthialee]

You bring up a very valid point of local environment having an effect on corrosion rate. I would suspect out in the high desert in the summer heat one would have less worry than someone at sea level in a port city when it comes to corrosion.

 

[Dphar]

You bring up a very valid point of local environment having an effect on corrosion rate. I would suspect out in the high desert in the summer heat one would have less worry than someone at sea level in a port city when it comes to corrosion.

While the difference is real it takes very little humidity to damage a bore. Water based lubes used for shooting can cause cumulative damage due to the "dwell time" between loading and firing. BP fouling is essentially inert below about 30% RH.
Salt sucks up water no matter what.
Everyone I ever talked to about this denied any problem with the stuff. Everyone whose gun I could examine was proven wrong. Just a fact and examinations used to be part of my job.
First clue is bluing removed from the interior of the barrel on hot tank blued barrels. By the time this is noticed the pits are already started. Magnification shows tiny pits. The bore will look shiny at a superficial glance but is actually frosted or slightly matted and white as the pits deepen the bigger ones may get darker.
But most people will not see this for what it is. I have seen "unpitted" percussion revolvers that had had the blue removed from part of the exterior and badly pitted. They reblued over the pits and the owner, until I actually pointed to the large pits on the cyl face maintained it was pit/rust free. Its likely is never did rust. But rust is not necessary for pitting. It dissolves the steel at the molecular level.
Another clue is excessive fouling with BP compared to when the gun was new. This is another indicator of a pitted bore.
Dan

 

[Rokon]

I hate to jump into this caldron, but if you haven't tried Alliant's "Black MZ" as a BP replacement, you're missing something.

It's as accurate as BP, produces minimal residue and can be fired in a flintlock. It's billed as being "virtually" non-corrosive, although I clean my barrel after shooting anyway and have never tested it for its non-corrosive properties.

It is more expensive than BP but so are all the replacements. It's also a bit dusty, but I can fire a 50 shot match with it without cleaning.

I shoot BP as well, but Black MZ is king of the pack in my mind if you're looking for a superior replacement.

 

[rodwha]

Powerwise what does it (MZ) compare to? Ie 75 grns = 75 grns of what?

 

[BrownBear]

...and can be fired in a flintlock.

Tell me more. With limited and sporadic access to real black, I continue to wait for a sub that will hum in my flinters.

 

[Rokon]

It is loaded vol-for-vol, but I have no idea how it compares to another propellant. Never made any comparison tests and have just enjoyed shooting it for what it is.

In my match rifle, which is a T/C Hawken with a GM .50 cal barrel, it's zeroed from 25 through 75 yards with 70 grs. Out at 100, the zero is maintained with 100 grs.

What impresses me is the consistent accuracy of Black MZ. It's fully the equal of BP and that's saying a lot for the product.

 

[bpd303]

I have seen this powder but never tried it. Have you used PRB's with it? What type of cleaning regiment do you use?
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/blackmz.aspx#facts

 

[Rokon]

I shoot it in my flinters, and I "sense" there is just a bit slower ignition than when I shoot BP.

Not enough to throw your shooting off though.

 

[Rokon]

All I shoot is PRB's. Cleaning? At the range, I use 2-3 wet patches of Hornady's "One Shot Muzzleloader Cleaner" (great stuff by the way) and also wipe down the nipple, snail, hammer and breech area. The bore is clean at that point.

When home, I pull the nipple and let it soak in the Hornday solution. Wet 3-4 Q-Tips and clean out the nipple and ignition train area of the breech insuring that enough cleaner gets into the small ignition chamber of the T/C breech plug.

The shoot some canned air into the nipple seat to drive the solution into the T/C ignition chamber.

Come in from the muzzle with a small bore brush and dry patch to clean out the T/C ignition chamber.

Then coat the inside and outside of the rifle with WD-40.

In short, it's the same regime as cleaning up with BP. I pull the lock every 3-4 months but have never seen any signs of corrosion.

In a match rifle, I do not believe in repeatedly removing the barrel from the stock and that's why I use Hornady One Shot immediately at the range and the cleaning system described. Another thing I like about Hornady One Shot is that it contains a metal protectant and is also harmless to wood stocks.