Blackpowder protection

[DNICK]

another vote for the 1911, tucked away in the headboard, like my bp revolvers and rifles but not for that Duane

 

[paulvallandigham]

You obviously have not taken a course on Self Defense, or spent any time reading about what the law requires of you before you use deadly force. In the classic scenario, a man breaking down your door to force an entry, shooting him when he enters is pretty cut and dry. However, what happens if you have forgotten to lock your door, your doorbell doesn't work, he doesn't force his way in, but simply enters because he couldn't seem to raise anyone in your house knocking on the door, or pushing the doorbell? Suppose, instead of being a criminal home invader, he is a poor guy whose child got hurt and he's trying to get a phone to call for an ambulance? Are you going to just ' blast away " with your shotgun because he dared enter your home? I hope not. You seem like a nice guy, and I would hate to see you serving time in prison with real criminals because you committed manslaughter, in that you employed deadly force before all the elements necessary to justify the use of deadly force are present. The castle doctrine does not waive your responsibilities to use caution before employing deadly force, either in your home, or anywhere else.

Sorry about that. The truth is that under the laws of every state in the country, You just can't shoot anyone and everyone who you happen to find in your house without permission.

 

[ss1]

Have you checked out the laws in TEXAS?? "Senate Bill 378, which will take effect September 1, 2007, expands citizens' legal right to protect themselves, not only at home and in their cars, but also in the workplace. The Texas Association of Business and Chambers of Commerce (TABCC), a prominent voice for employers, took no position on the bill, despite its reference to the workplace, said TABCC Government Affairs Manager Cathy DeWitt.

Backed by the National Rifle Association, the new law states that citizens have no duty to retreat from an intruder in the workplace before using deadly force. Originally, state law required people to retreat in the face of a criminal attack. Then, in 1995, lawmakers carved out an exception that allowed use of force without retreat when an intruder unlawfully entered someone's home.

This year's bill expands that exception even farther, extending peoples' right to stand their ground beyond the home into cars and workplaces. It allows the reasonable use of deadly force when an intruder is (1) committing violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes; (2) unlawfully trying to enter a protected place; or (3) unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place. The law also protects people who lawfully use deadly force in those circumstances by making them civilly immune in a consequent lawsuit." This is work place, Your home is your casle.

 

[Zonie]

I haven't checked the laws in Texas, but I know that what paul says is true in most places. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's true in Texas too.
Folks can't just open fire unless they have a good reason, and in most places, someone just entering a house without showing some form of danger to the occupants isn't enough reason.

IMO, you folks who have your trusty smoothbores loaded with 00 Buckshot are living dangerously.
First off, 00 Buckshot can easily blow thru the drywall most places are made from. If it does, it can take out a family member who has the misfortune to be in the next room.
Also, if you do use that Buckshot to kill or wound someone and the police decide to arrest you and you go to trial your intent will be one of the things they will debate.
If your gun is loaded with Buckshot it may be hard to convince the court or jury that you are not someone who intentionally wants to kill people.
Most courts and jurys aren't fond of people who want to kill people.

If your gun is loaded with birdshot it is very likely the court or jury will think you didn't really want to kill anyone, you just wanted to use the nearest thing at hand to stop an aggressive homebreaker.
The bird shot is also much less likely to kill a friend standing in the next room.

Something to think about.
zonie

 

[ss1]

This is why one uses hollow points in a hand gun. The CPL coures is worth the money, if for no other reason than learing the LAW!

 

[Claude Mathis]

Please, let's stick to the original topic - "Anybody use there muzzleloaders for home defense?".

We've discussed the castle doctrine in other threads. Any further comments related to it should be placed there.

The subject is - do you use black powder, not are you justified when shooting an intruder.

I don't mean to be anal about this, but so many discussions get side-tracked lately.

 

[Parzifal]

My blunderbess by the bed with a custom paper cartridge on night stand 100 grns ffg / topped by roughly 1oz of road salt.
only wish I could get a lemat.

Not permitted to defend yourself here but if worse comes to worse I will defend myself, then still alive defend myself in court.

Rob

 

[longshot47]

No sir-
Muzzleloaders are for the defense of my sanity :hmm:
Ithaca M37 12 ga. featherlight pump -8 shot, 20" barrel, is frontline home defense. :thumbsup:

Zonie's comments are sobering,but well tendered.
Longshot

 

[paulvallandigham]

SS1: You are talking about the Castle Doctrine, in another form. I totally agree with the doctrine, but it still does not license you to shoot just anyone who happens to be in your home or car, or business without your permission.

My suggestion to you is the same advice I teach my students about the law of self defense:

1. Avoid being a back shooter, unless its clear that you are preventing the imminent and immediate stabbing or shooting of another innocent person. Juries and cops and prosecutors don't like back shooters. Its all that training we got watching the Lone Ranger.

2. Remember the fundamental tenets of Self Defense: Before you use deadly force, facts and circumstance which can be observed and articulated later in a Court of Law, must exist.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry, but the rest of my response did not get printed.

continuing on with those tenets:

a. The Bad guy must demonstrate he( they) has the ABILITY to cause Great Bodily Harm( GBH) or Death to you or another innocent party. This can be disparity in size, sex, age, strength, numbers, etc. AND proximity to use such force.

b. The Bad guy must demonstrate he(they) has
The CAPACITY to do you( or another innocent person) GBH or death: This may be possession of a firearm, which the Law Presumes( legal presumptions are very rare, but this is one of them) is deadly regardless of distance( range). It can be a knife or blunt object such as a club, or hammer, or your Ming Vase, PROVIDED that the bad guy is within reasonable striking distance. Self Defense experts have proven that a person within 7 yards( 21 feet) of you can attack and hurt you with a knife, pen, pencil, spike, ice pick, blunt object, etc. within 1.5 seconds, about the same length of time it takes the average officer to react and draw and fire his holstered handgun on controlled range conditions. When such an attack is unexpected, the time to react, draw and fire is much longer, and you will be hurt unless you take other steps to avoid the attack. There are very few rooms in a house that will give you as much as 21 feet distance between you and an intruder. I refer to the 21 foot circle around a person as his " ZONE OF DANGER", BECAUSE ANYONE WITHIN THAT PERIMETER CAN ATTACK AND HARM YOU- EVEN KILL YOU- BEFORE YOU CAN EMPLOY A FIREARM IN SELF DEFENSE.

c. The Bad guys must indicate by his words or actions that he INTENDS to do you "GBH or death. If he has a gun in his back pocket while he is taking your TV and computer out the door, it really doesn't matter much what he might be saying. He simply does not have the ability, given the fact he has his hands full and his back to you, to employ deadly force against you. But, on the other hand, if he is obviously searching your house, gun in hand, and saying, Diabolically, like in any good Hollywood thriller, " Where are YOU! I am going to KILL you!" His intent is obvious.

d. The bad guy must demonstrate by his words and actions that an attack on you or some other innocent person is IMMINENT, and CANNOT BE AVOIDED. Avoidance has caused lots of problems and is the reason that the Castle Doctrine was created, after a trial court judge mininterpreted the law in a heavily reported case more than 25 years ago. His decision was overturned, but the case still echoes across the land, and through law schools is carried on with professors teaching new law students that Avoidance means " RETREAT !"

AVOIDANCE does NOT mean " retreat!" What it refers to is the idea that if someone is searching for you, says he has a gun, but can't locate you, and you are in a place where he can't reach you within a few seconds or minutes,that you should not confront the man even to use deadly force against him to prevent him from hurting you or other innocents. Stay put. He may give up and leave.

Take as an example, a two story house, where you and your family are in beds on the second floor. You are in a position to cover the staircase leading to the second floor, so that no one can get to you or your family without coming under your gun. STAY PUT. Don't go downstairs to " investigate" or confront the guy. If you can call the police, do so. If you have a car with an alarm sitting out front, and you can turn on the alarm with your beeper, do so. If you can call neighbors to arm themselves and keep the guy from escaping the scene after he leaves your home, do so. You don't want a gunfight taking place in your own home, if it can be avoided! Those walls are not as thick as you think. And, just because you hear one person moving or talking down there does not mean he is not accompanied by friends.

I am thinking of the Harrision Ford Movie where he and his family are attacked in his home by Irish Terrorists, bound to kill him because he killed one of the attacker's brother in a shoot out while visiting London. They heard one atacker, but there were three more. They were very lucky. The family escapes out a trap door to the roof, from the second floor, before the bad guys get up there, while other innocents stay in the basement, and escape out a cellar door, leaving behind the mole who had set the attack up. There were lots of mistakes made by that family, and they still survived, simply because the script writers controlled the outcome, and not the bad guys.

Forget the " I Love Lucy " reruns where Lucy sends Desi downstairs to investigate noises. In real life she would be sending him to his death.

In some states the Castle Doctrine Statutes also prohibit civil law suits where the doctrine applies. That is important, because the felon or his relatives will sue you, and those plaintiff's lawyers will bleed you dry just in defense attorney's costs with their lawsuits. Your homeowner's policies do not cover intentional " wrong doing ", so if you are sued for wrongful death, or battery, you will not have your insurance company providing an attorney for your defense, nor paying any judgment taken against you. These states with this prohibition against such lawsuits, are the first time we have barred innocent people from being financially ruined by evil intended lawyers pursuing an anti-gun agenda for their own political purposes. Not all states have passed the Castle Doctrine, Nor do all such statutes prohibit these civil suits. You have to check the law in your own state, and check to see that such a provision is written into the Act.

This is as good a short summary of the Law of Self Defense, as it relates to the Castle Doctrine, as I can give. If you have specific questions, please P.M. me, rather than extend this topic further.

paul

 

[roundball]

No BP for home protection...S&W handles that chore.

And I agree with Zonie on birdshot...#4's at 10-15 feet would do all we'd need done...hasn't spread out yet, etc

 

[Greenmtnboy]

I think where my family and my life is concerned, the farthest I'll go back is 1911. :v

:bow: :bow:
nuff said.
luckily the only thing dangerous in our neck of the woods is me :haha: an occasional black bear looking for a free meal(the cat :haha: ) So what ever is loaded behind the door is good nuff.
If I lived in town or a city I would have a 1911 and a pump loaded with buck.

 

[Greenmtnboy]

Sorry, but the rest of my response did not get printed.

continuing on with those tenets:

a. The Bad guy must demonstrate he( they) has the ABILITY to cause Great Bodily Harm( GBH) or Death to you or another innocent party. This can be disparity in size, sex, age, strength, numbers, etc. AND proximity to use such force.

b. The Bad guy must demonstrate he(they) has
The CAPACITY to do you( or another innocent person) GBH or death: This may be possession of a firearm, which the Law Presumes( legal presumptions are very rare, but this is one of them) is deadly regardless of distance( range). It can be a knife or blunt object such as a club, or hammer, or your Ming Vase, PROVIDED that the bad guy is within reasonable striking distance. Self Defense experts have proven that a person within 7 yards( 21 feet) of you can attack and hurt you with a knife, pen, pencil, spike, ice pick, blunt object, etc. within 1.5 seconds, about the same length of time it takes the average officer to react and draw and fire his holstered handgun on controlled range conditions. When such an attack is unexpected, the time to react, draw and fire is much longer, and you will be hurt unless you take other steps to avoid the attack. There are very few rooms in a house that will give you as much as 21 feet distance between you and an intruder. I refer to the 21 foot circle around a person as his " ZONE OF DANGER", BECAUSE ANYONE WITHIN THAT PERIMETER CAN ATTACK AND HARM YOU- EVEN KILL YOU- BEFORE YOU CAN EMPLOY A FIREARM IN SELF DEFENSE.

c. The Bad guys must indicate by his words or actions that he INTENDS to do you "GBH or death. If he has a gun in his back pocket while he is taking your TV and computer out the door, it really doesn't matter much what he might be saying. He simply does not have the ability, given the fact he has his hands full and his back to you, to employ deadly force against you. But, on the other hand, if he is obviously searching your house, gun in hand, and saying, Diabolically, like in any good Hollywood thriller, " Where are YOU! I am going to KILL you!" His intent is obvious.

d. The bad guy must demonstrate by his words and actions that an attack on you or some other innocent person is IMMINENT, and CANNOT BE AVOIDED. Avoidance has caused lots of problems and is the reason that the Castle Doctrine was created, after a trial court judge mininterpreted the law in a heavily reported case more than 25 years ago. His decision was overturned, but the case still echoes across the land, and through law schools is carried on with professors teaching new law students that Avoidance means " RETREAT !"

AVOIDANCE does NOT mean " retreat!" What it refers to is the idea that if someone is searching for you, says he has a gun, but can't locate you, and you are in a place where he can't reach you within a few seconds or minutes,that you should not confront the man even to use deadly force against him to prevent him from hurting you or other innocents. Stay put. He may give up and leave.

Take as an example, a two story house, where you and your family are in beds on the second floor. You are in a position to cover the staircase leading to the second floor, so that no one can get to you or your family without coming under your gun. STAY PUT. Don't go downstairs to " investigate" or confront the guy. If you can call the police, do so. If you have a car with an alarm sitting out front, and you can turn on the alarm with your beeper, do so. If you can call neighbors to arm themselves and keep the guy from escaping the scene after he leaves your home, do so. You don't want a gunfight taking place in your own home, if it can be avoided! Those walls are not as thick as you think. And, just because you hear one person moving or talking down there does not mean he is not accompanied by friends.

I am thinking of the Harrision Ford Movie where he and his family are attacked in his home by Irish Terrorists, bound to kill him because he killed one of the attacker's brother in a shoot out while visiting London. They heard one atacker, but there were three more. They were very lucky. The family escapes out a trap door to the roof, from the second floor, before the bad guys get up there, while other innocents stay in the basement, and escape out a cellar door, leaving behind the mole who had set the attack up. There were lots of mistakes made by that family, and they still survived, simply because the script writers controlled the outcome, and not the bad guys.

Forget the " I Love Lucy " reruns where Lucy sends Desi downstairs to investigate noises. In real life she would be sending him to his death.

In some states the Castle Doctrine Statutes also prohibit civil law suits where the doctrine applies. That is important, because the felon or his relatives will sue you, and those plaintiff's lawyers will bleed you dry just in defense attorney's costs with their lawsuits. Your homeowner's policies do not cover intentional " wrong doing ", so if you are sued for wrongful death, or battery, you will not have your insurance company providing an attorney for your defense, nor paying any judgment taken against you. These states with this prohibition against such lawsuits, are the first time we have barred innocent people from being financially ruined by evil intended lawyers pursuing an anti-gun agenda for their own political purposes. Not all states have passed the Castle Doctrine, Nor do all such statutes prohibit these civil suits. You have to check the law in your own state, and check to see that such a provision is written into the Act.

This is as good a short summary of the Law of Self Defense, as it relates to the Castle Doctrine, as I can give. If you have specific questions, please P.M. me, rather than extend this topic further.

paul

Paul in this day in age( sorry if this sounds redneck) but the term shoot, shovel and shut up is what my only neighbor (three miles away) and I practice, honestly if some dirt bag broke in to do harm in our neck of the woods he or she ( no discrimination here) probably won't be missed.
I won't be calling Johny law just so some D.A. with a hard on tries to make an example of me.
:shake:
I also live in the make my day state of CO.

 

[ss1]

Spoken like a true Lawyer and Policition. ONCE AGAIN, read TEXAS Laws. You do not live and teach in TEXAS. Thank goodness

 

[paulvallandigham]

SS1: I know that Texas is one of the states with the full Castle Doctrine protection. But, take a self defense class there. I can assure you that when Thunder Ranch was still operational in Texas, before moving to Oregon, Mr. Smith did not teach " shoot first and ask questions later." And, Clint would not be teaching that doctrine today, either. I do keep up on these things.

 

[Jumpshot]

LOL! I think your words are falling on deaf ears, Claude. :rotf:

Anybody use there muzzleloaders for home defence?

Nope. I'm a Glock man. :thumbsup: Then there's also my Mossberg 500, SKS, 12-gauge double coach gun (as a last resort). For home defense, I prefer modern reliability, firepower, etc. I consider it my duty and responsibility to provide for my family's protection, and I won't rely on outdated equipment for that (unless I had nothing else).

 

[Claude Mathis]

LOL! I think your words are falling on deaf ears, Claude. :rotf:

Must be selective hearing loss. :grin:

Let's try it again...

Please, let's stick to the original topic - "Anybody use there muzzleloaders for home defense?".

We've discussed the castle doctrine in other threads. Any further comments related to it should be placed there.

The subject is - do you use black powder, not are you justified when shooting an intruder.

I don't mean to be anal about this, but so many discussions get side-tracked lately.

 

[ss1]

That was THEN, this is NOW. IMHO, the reasons for not shooting some one in your home is: 1. Wrong to kill. 2.The damage [from weapon and blood] to home could be several thousands of dollars.You might have to pay dedctable [app] of $2,000. Also, if one ever trys to sell house, one has to declare "that someone died on property?" [TEXAS]. Legal or not, I am not going to spend this kind of money, if there is any way out of it. This MIGHT be the reason I wan't use ML for protection. [Just staying with thread question}

 

[Jumpshot]

Hmm, still not working. Maybe you should try red text, in italics... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[ssastar]

That was THEN, this is NOW. IMHO, the reasons for not shooting some one in your home is: 1. Wrong to kill.

Wrong to kill??????
So if someone is raping your wife then you'll just stand and watch while you dial 911